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Author Topic:   flying spaghetti monster flap in kansas
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1489 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 26 of 148 (308939)
05-03-2006 11:19 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by GDR
05-03-2006 11:05 PM


Re: Accidents
These genetic mutations could have occurred as you would say by natural selection.
I don't understand how people get something so simple so wrong, over and over again.
Selection doesn't cause mutations. Selection is the fact that not every organism survives to reproduce, or reproduces the same number of offspring.
I think it is far more likely given the design involved that these genetic mutations were either designed initially or guided throughout the process by an external intelligence.
Well, we know that mutations occur at random, over time. We know that they're not something programmed into the DNA, laying there in wait. Mutations happen; they're not designed or preprogrammmed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by GDR, posted 05-03-2006 11:05 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by GDR, posted 05-03-2006 11:41 PM crashfrog has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1489 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 28 of 148 (308956)
05-03-2006 11:56 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by GDR
05-03-2006 11:41 PM


Re: Accidents
Neither of us can make those statements and prove that they are true.
Well, no, that's false. Many, many experiments have been performed that show that mutations aren't the environmental activation of already-present genetic programming; they're novel genetic sequences that arise, at random, in organisms.
It is scientific to say that mutations happen but to say why they happen is not.
Mutations aren't magic. They happen because DNA, like any molecule, follows the laws of physics. Sometimes mutations happen because UV radiation causes two adjacent thyamines to form a dimer. Sometimes they happen when reactive molecules damage a nucleotide base or two.
What would make you think that the origin of mutations couldn't be a scientific question? Seems perfectly scientific to me.
You have looked at the world and come to one conclusion and I have come to another. I just think that your position stretches credulity more than mine does but that isn't scientific either.
You're entitled to your own opinion, but not to your own facts. The fact is, mutations are not pre-programmed into an organism's DNA; they're changes that happen to the DNA, caused at random by one of a number of perfectly natural physical events.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by GDR, posted 05-03-2006 11:41 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by GDR, posted 05-04-2006 12:32 AM crashfrog has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1489 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 33 of 148 (309001)
05-04-2006 8:51 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by GDR
05-04-2006 12:32 AM


Re: Accidents
You keep confusing an explanation of how things happen for why they happen.
You're the one doing that. You're the one setting scientific explanations of the mechanisms of events against subjective religious stories about why they happen, as though those two things were mutually exclusive, and the presence of the second nullified the first.
You are right, they follow the laws of physics, but you can't say why the laws of physics exist at all.
Who cares why they exist? It's hardly necessary for us to know the origin of the laws of physics for us to draft models that employ them to explain phenomena.
I'm convinced that the laws of physics are the way they are because they are designed that way, whereas you are convinced that they're not.
Where in this thread have I made any assertions about my view of the origin of the laws of physics?
Also, this is a substantially different claim than the one you were originally making. Can we assume, because you've abandoned any attempt to support it, that you no longer hold the position that mutations are pre-programmed into the DNA of organisms?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by GDR, posted 05-04-2006 12:32 AM GDR has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1489 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 36 of 148 (309064)
05-04-2006 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by iano
05-04-2006 10:55 AM


Re: Accidents
To be fair to Crash he would say that there is no reason why.
Eyes exist because seeing is useful. That's a perfectly scientific answer to a perfectly scientific question.
I mean how hard is that? Why is it that you two insist on taking perfectly answerable, scientific questions and acting like the answers are somehow beyond the scope of human knowledge?
I mean, did you two really need me to tell you what to do with your eyes? Reading books with them would be my first suggestion.
I do wonder about ToE myself. Like how carnivores managed to evolve.
Carrion eating would be the transitional state, there, I suspect. Eating your own offspring costs you nothing (setting aside diseases) if they're already dead, or even if they're likely to die. This is a strategy that many insects employ - spiders eating their own young, etc.
But honestly? What makes you think that carnivores evolved from herbivores in the first place? Carnivores and herbivores are more likely to be specialized derivatives of omnivores.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by iano, posted 05-04-2006 10:55 AM iano has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1489 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 38 of 148 (309089)
05-04-2006 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by LudoRephaim
05-04-2006 3:05 PM


Re: I agree
The idea that evertything we see came about because everything built it'self into order without something guiding it is very far fetched.
Why? What leads you to believe that chaos, and not order, is the natural consequence of a lack of guidance in the natural world?
(What I love is the idea that the best-supported theory in biology is somehow "far-fetched", but a magic sky-man who grants wishes is totally reasonable.)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by LudoRephaim, posted 05-04-2006 3:05 PM LudoRephaim has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by LudoRephaim, posted 05-04-2006 3:54 PM crashfrog has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1489 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 42 of 148 (309116)
05-04-2006 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by LudoRephaim
05-04-2006 3:54 PM


Re: I agree
Hehe, I was waiting for the atheist fundies to attack LOL.
You mean "respond to your goading." Mission accomplished - you were able to be rude and dismissive enough for someone to reply in the same manner. Do you want your cookie now?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by LudoRephaim, posted 05-04-2006 3:54 PM LudoRephaim has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by LudoRephaim, posted 05-04-2006 4:35 PM crashfrog has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1489 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 44 of 148 (309128)
05-04-2006 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by LudoRephaim
05-04-2006 4:35 PM


Re: I agree
Um, I wasn't rude first. You made the "guy in the sky" remark before my "atheist fundie" remark.
What would you call message 37, if not rude? You basically implied that evolutionists were idiots who couldn't see something so obvious it was hitting them right in the face.
Oh, I dont need a cookie. I got decaf coffee.
What? Cookies go great with coffee.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by LudoRephaim, posted 05-04-2006 4:35 PM LudoRephaim has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by LudoRephaim, posted 05-04-2006 5:14 PM crashfrog has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1489 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 47 of 148 (309184)
05-04-2006 7:09 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by LudoRephaim
05-04-2006 5:14 PM


Re: whops!!
I think Starbucks is a ripoff (i get better black coffee with home made folgers But to me, coffee is coffee.
Take it from a former barista - buy fresh beans and grind your own. Get one of those blade grinders like Billy Crystal uses in City Slickers. Grind for about a slow ten-count. Put the grinds into some kind of funneling filter device - you could actually just shove a few conical coffee filters into a large kitchen funnel, or do like I do and use one of those perforated gold screen ones - put it over the top of a carafe or something, and slowly pour hot water (like, bring it to just where it starts to bubble before the boil) through - about 6 oz for every tablespoon of ground bean you have in the filter.
Yes, Starbucks is kind of a ripoff. I mean, once you have a real cappuchino, you'll pay quite a bit for it, and Starbucks is going to have equipment for drawing espresso and frothing milk that you don't. On the other hand, they're going to have zombies working the espresso machine instead of people who know what coffee should taste like, and charging you bundles for the privilege.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by LudoRephaim, posted 05-04-2006 5:14 PM LudoRephaim has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by jar, posted 05-04-2006 7:17 PM crashfrog has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1489 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 51 of 148 (309213)
05-04-2006 8:03 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by jar
05-04-2006 7:17 PM


Re: One or two suggestions.
Get a burr grinder instead of a blade grinder.
I don't think they offer the same control over the grind. You have to guess when you set the dial. The blade grinder, you just stop when you hit the right grind. They're easier to clean and they don't hold onto coffee oils as much. Plus you can use them to chop peanuts.
My burr grinder is a piece. I used it once and then went back to my blade grinder; the one that's half-melted from my apartment fire.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by jar, posted 05-04-2006 7:17 PM jar has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1489 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 62 of 148 (309395)
05-05-2006 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by GDR
05-05-2006 1:33 PM


Re: Accidents
I would add though, that there is no evidence that supports the notion that there is no intelligence behind our existance.
The evidence is the lack of any evidence that supports the notion of intelligence behind our existence.
Everything about the universe, the world, human and non-human life is incredibly complex and in my view anything that complex very strongly indicates a designer.
If literally everything is complex, then how do you recognize complexity? If there's no simplicity in the universe, what makes you think that it's even possible for something to be simple?
I read about science as a hobby and I envy scientists their knowledge of things scientific, but I don't agree that they are necessarily better able to answer philosophical or theological questions than anyone else.
Questions about how living things then became the living things we have now are not philosophical or theological, they're biological.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by GDR, posted 05-05-2006 1:33 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by GDR, posted 05-05-2006 1:51 PM crashfrog has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1489 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 65 of 148 (309413)
05-05-2006 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by GDR
05-05-2006 1:51 PM


Re: Accidents
Lack of evidence is not evidence.The human body is relatively complex compared to a rock.
If even a stupid rock can be complex, what makes you think you need intelligence to have complexity? What, God hand-made every single rock?
I agree, but I'm talking about why living things became what we have now, not how.
The "why" is because, if they didn't become that, they wouldn't have survived. And a lot of organisms haven't.
What makes you think that "why" has to be philosophic every time it's asked?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by GDR, posted 05-05-2006 1:51 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by GDR, posted 05-05-2006 2:40 PM crashfrog has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1489 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 69 of 148 (309421)
05-05-2006 2:46 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Parasomnium
05-05-2006 2:36 PM


Re: Accidents
Logically there can be no evidence of the absence of anything.
Then how do you know when to buy milk when you're at the store?
"Honey, I'm about to go to the store. Do we need milk?"
"Well, let me check. I don't see any evidence of any milk in here, but that's hardly evidence that we have an absence of milk."
"Ok, I guess I'll just save 3 bucks and not buy any. After all I can't be sure we actually need some."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by Parasomnium, posted 05-05-2006 2:36 PM Parasomnium has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Parasomnium, posted 05-05-2006 2:50 PM crashfrog has not replied
 Message 76 by Parasomnium, posted 05-05-2006 3:42 PM crashfrog has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1489 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 70 of 148 (309423)
05-05-2006 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by GDR
05-05-2006 2:40 PM


Re: Accidents
I'm talking about why a system that is designed to support the evolutionary process you describe exists at all.
What makes you think it could be any other way?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by GDR, posted 05-05-2006 2:40 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by GDR, posted 05-05-2006 2:56 PM crashfrog has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1489 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 81 of 148 (309469)
05-05-2006 5:30 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by Parasomnium
05-05-2006 3:42 PM


Re: The non-existence of milk
I should have said of course that there can be no evidence that something does not exist. I mistakenly equivocated 'absence' with 'non-existence'.
I still don't see how you know when to buy milk. How do you prove that the milk doesn't exist in your fridge?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Parasomnium, posted 05-05-2006 3:42 PM Parasomnium has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by Parasomnium, posted 05-05-2006 6:05 PM crashfrog has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1489 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 83 of 148 (309476)
05-05-2006 5:42 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by robinrohan
05-05-2006 5:35 PM


That's not the same sort of entity as the concept of God, is it?
No, they're nothing alike. Your ridiculous "God" is made of "spirit" or some nonexistent nonsense; the FSM is made of pasta, which we all know actually exists.
There's actually evidence for the FSM, but none for your so-called "God."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by robinrohan, posted 05-05-2006 5:35 PM robinrohan has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by robinrohan, posted 05-05-2006 5:45 PM crashfrog has replied

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