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Author
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Topic: 'Intelligent-design' school board ousted in Penn
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nator
Member (Idle past 2192 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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Message 46 of 69 (258955)
11-11-2005 5:55 PM
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Reply to: Message 41 by randman
11-11-2005 5:25 PM
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Re: vpuchers are the solution
quote:
No, I don't see an issue of violating any separation clause, and frankly it's not an issue of what I want.
So, if you could check a box on your tax form to send some of your education tax contribution to a Satanist school, would you check it?
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A Wicca parent should be allowed to send their kids to a Wicca school,
and they can, with their own money, not mine.
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and if there is such a school, well, it's up to the parents what school to send their kids to with the voucher money.
It is against the Constitution for public funds to be used to promote any religion. A Satanist school would be promoting Satanism, and therefore a public-funds voucher would be using my tax money to promote Satanism to children. You are OK with this?
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The truth is the current approach is a violation, imo, because it forces the State to adopt an official ideology,
What ideology is that?
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which was what the separation idea was trying to end. Right now, there is an official religion in the public schools, and it is secularism. By removing the state's coercion and allowing parents to decide, the State would then be truly not establishing any official religion or ideology.
What a load of bollocks. Secularism is not a religion. It is the absence of religion, by definition. That's like saying that I follow the religion of not watching football on TV because I don't watch football on TV. Do you follow the religion of not being a Satanist, randman?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 41 by randman, posted 11-11-2005 5:25 PM | | randman has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 48 by randman, posted 11-11-2005 5:56 PM | | nator has replied |
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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4921 days) Posts: 6367 Joined: 05-26-2005
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Message 47 of 69 (258956)
11-11-2005 5:55 PM
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Reply to: Message 44 by nator
11-11-2005 5:46 PM
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Re: vpuchers are the solution
OK, Shraf, since you say you learned theology so well, let's do a test. Can you easily explain the theological differences between Arminianism, Anabaptism and Reformed theology in terms of how they affected the early American colonies and the religious and political landscape until 1800, and how those same strains contributed to the Second Great Awakening and social mores of the 19th century? It should be relatively easy if you have a basic education in American history.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 44 by nator, posted 11-11-2005 5:46 PM | | nator has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 50 by nator, posted 11-11-2005 6:01 PM | | randman has replied | | | Message 61 by nator, posted 11-11-2005 7:16 PM | | randman has not replied |
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randman
Suspended Member (Idle past 4921 days) Posts: 6367 Joined: 05-26-2005
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Message 48 of 69 (258957)
11-11-2005 5:56 PM
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Reply to: Message 46 by nator
11-11-2005 5:55 PM
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Re: vpuchers are the solution
Secularism is just much a religion as Confucianism or many religions, if you ask me.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 46 by nator, posted 11-11-2005 5:55 PM | | nator has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 51 by nator, posted 11-11-2005 6:07 PM | | randman has replied | | | Message 54 by nator, posted 11-11-2005 6:10 PM | | randman has replied |
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nwr
Member Posts: 6409 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: 08-08-2005 Member Rating: 5.3
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Message 49 of 69 (258958)
11-11-2005 6:00 PM
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Reply to: Message 45 by randman
11-11-2005 5:47 PM
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Re: vouchers are STILL NOT the solution
OK, let's do a hypothetical and say the voucher is 4K and the school district spends 10K per student. There are 10K students.
No. Let's do a hypothetical where the voucher is $10K per year, and the school district spends $1K per student. Can't you see that such hypotheticals are meaningless?
said by a creationist: I am saying we always only witness "poofs." Poofs are basic to what consitutes physical reality.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 45 by randman, posted 11-11-2005 5:47 PM | | randman has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 55 by randman, posted 11-11-2005 6:11 PM | | nwr has replied |
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nator
Member (Idle past 2192 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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Message 50 of 69 (258960)
11-11-2005 6:01 PM
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Reply to: Message 47 by randman
11-11-2005 5:55 PM
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Re: vpuchers are the solution
quote:
Can you easily explain the theological differences between Arminianism, Anabaptism and Reformed theology in terms of how they affected the early American colonies and the religious and political landscape until 1800, and how those same strains contributed to the Second Great Awakening and social mores of the 19th century?
No. But I didn't say I learned theology "so well". I said that I learned about the Bible and Christianity in AP history in high school, and a bit more in Western History in College.Your claim was that it was completely ignored in secular schools, but my own experience proved you wrong. Stop moving the goalposts again. Can you easily explain the Krebs cycle, or name the major parts and their functions of a mammalian cell, or describe the funcion of zylem and floem? It should be relatively easy if you have a basic education in Biology. This message has been edited by schrafinator, 11-11-2005 06:02 PM
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 47 by randman, posted 11-11-2005 5:55 PM | | randman has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 52 by randman, posted 11-11-2005 6:08 PM | | nator has replied |
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nator
Member (Idle past 2192 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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Message 51 of 69 (258962)
11-11-2005 6:07 PM
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Reply to: Message 48 by randman
11-11-2005 5:56 PM
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Re: vpuchers are the solution
quote:
Secularism is just much a religion as Confucianism or many religions, if you ask me.
Ah, I see you are being slippery with semantics again. Secular ism is different from being secular. The US government is supposed to be secular, as are our public schools. Being secular amounts to not professing an affiliation to any particular religion or faith. That is the nature of our government and the public schools.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 48 by randman, posted 11-11-2005 5:56 PM | | randman has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 53 by randman, posted 11-11-2005 6:10 PM | | nator has replied |
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randman
Suspended Member (Idle past 4921 days) Posts: 6367 Joined: 05-26-2005
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Message 52 of 69 (258963)
11-11-2005 6:08 PM
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Reply to: Message 50 by nator
11-11-2005 6:01 PM
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Re: vpuchers are the solution
You don't know squat about Western and American history if you cannot easily answer that question. You thus recieved an inferiour education in that area, and don't understand much of the primary ideas that shaped Western and America history.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 50 by nator, posted 11-11-2005 6:01 PM | | nator has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 56 by nator, posted 11-11-2005 6:15 PM | | randman has not replied |
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randman
Suspended Member (Idle past 4921 days) Posts: 6367 Joined: 05-26-2005
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Message 53 of 69 (258964)
11-11-2005 6:10 PM
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Reply to: Message 51 by nator
11-11-2005 6:07 PM
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Re: vpuchers are the solution
Secularism has become a faith all on it's own and demands no other "faith" be given equal status. We have the exact opposite of what the establishment clause sought to prevent. We have an official, codified religion/ideology being rammed down everyone's throats to the exclusion of any other ideology/religion/belief system.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 51 by nator, posted 11-11-2005 6:07 PM | | nator has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 58 by nator, posted 11-11-2005 6:17 PM | | randman has not replied |
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nator
Member (Idle past 2192 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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Message 54 of 69 (258965)
11-11-2005 6:10 PM
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Reply to: Message 48 by randman
11-11-2005 5:56 PM
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Re: vpuchers are the solution
Now, can you please provide some evidence which shows that secularism is a religion, rather than simply an indifference to religion or the ignoring of it?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 48 by randman, posted 11-11-2005 5:56 PM | | randman has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 57 by randman, posted 11-11-2005 6:16 PM | | nator has replied |
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randman
Suspended Member (Idle past 4921 days) Posts: 6367 Joined: 05-26-2005
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Message 55 of 69 (258967)
11-11-2005 6:11 PM
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Reply to: Message 49 by nwr
11-11-2005 6:00 PM
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Re: vouchers are STILL NOT the solution
Nwr, the 10K and 4K are a typical ratio. Do some research.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 49 by nwr, posted 11-11-2005 6:00 PM | | nwr has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 62 by nwr, posted 11-11-2005 7:19 PM | | randman has replied |
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nator
Member (Idle past 2192 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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Message 56 of 69 (258968)
11-11-2005 6:15 PM
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Reply to: Message 52 by randman
11-11-2005 6:08 PM
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Re: vpuchers are the solution
quote:
You don't know squat about Western and American history if you cannot easily answer that question.
Somehow, your critique of my education doesn't mean anything at all to me, randman. I suppose we can now add "American History Expert" to your titles of "Evolutionary Biology Expert", "Nature of Scientific Inquiry Expert", "World Political Affairs Expert", and " Investment and Economics Expert". My my, it's a wonder that YOU aren't in Bush's cabinet!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 52 by randman, posted 11-11-2005 6:08 PM | | randman has not replied |
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randman
Suspended Member (Idle past 4921 days) Posts: 6367 Joined: 05-26-2005
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Message 57 of 69 (258969)
11-11-2005 6:16 PM
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Reply to: Message 54 by nator
11-11-2005 6:10 PM
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Re: vpuchers are the solution
But is secularism a religion? Those who study the sphere of philosophy of religion maintain that part of a religion’s identity is defined as an organized group of adherents with a particular belief system. The secularists, like unto atheists, maintain they have no belief system. But that is not true. Included in their belief system is the activism to purge the identity of God from the public square and the state educational systems. They use government as a tool to impose their belief system on others, and far too often, the Court is their pulpit to proclaim their right to not be offended by any vestige of God in the public arena. If they have their way about it, our culture will become a “don’t ask, don’t tell” society regarding one’s faith. I, as a “John Q.Taxpayer,” am offended that any portion of my cultural American heritage is squelched by another religious group that uses the tax-supported Court as their primary method of propagating their message. Does not the secularists’ push for sterilizing the public square of Christian icons constitute the establishment of a religion by the Court itself? In the Kentucky case, doesn’t the ruling by the majority of justices move forward the religion of secularism at the expense of Judeo-Christian adherents? http://archive.baptistmessenger.com/Issue/050714/1.html Secularism is a religion. It is broadreaching, is a belief system with adherents, involving ethics, society, attitudes, etc,...
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 54 by nator, posted 11-11-2005 6:10 PM | | nator has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 59 by nator, posted 11-11-2005 6:22 PM | | randman has not replied | | | Message 60 by nator, posted 11-11-2005 6:25 PM | | randman has not replied |
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nator
Member (Idle past 2192 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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Message 58 of 69 (258971)
11-11-2005 6:17 PM
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Reply to: Message 53 by randman
11-11-2005 6:10 PM
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Re: vpuchers are the solution
quote:
We have an official, codified religion/ideology being rammed down everyone's throats to the exclusion of any other ideology/religion/belief system.
There's a code? An official code? What is it? I suppose that you believe that secular music and secular art are all "religious" music and art? What about secular literature? Is it all really religious? This message has been edited by schrafinator, 11-11-2005 06:19 PM
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 53 by randman, posted 11-11-2005 6:10 PM | | randman has not replied |
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nator
Member (Idle past 2192 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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Message 59 of 69 (258972)
11-11-2005 6:22 PM
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Reply to: Message 57 by randman
11-11-2005 6:16 PM
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Re: vpuchers are the solution
quote:
The secularists, like unto atheists, maintain they have no belief system. But that is not true. Included in their belief system is the activism to purge the identity of God from the public square and the state educational systems.
If you could check a box on your tax form to give a portion of your education tax contribution to fund Satanist schools, would you do it? Would it be OK with you if all the schools around you became Satanist schools and actively promoted Satanism, and all of your education tax dollars went to those schools?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 57 by randman, posted 11-11-2005 6:16 PM | | randman has not replied |
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nator
Member (Idle past 2192 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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Message 60 of 69 (258973)
11-11-2005 6:25 PM
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Reply to: Message 57 by randman
11-11-2005 6:16 PM
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Re: vpuchers are the solution
Can you explain to me how not being able to use my money to promote your religion to children prevents you from believing in God as you see fit?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 57 by randman, posted 11-11-2005 6:16 PM | | randman has not replied |
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