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Author
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Topic: DATELINE - Rise of Evangelism in America
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Silent H
Member (Idle past 5847 days) Posts: 7405 From: satellite of love Joined: 12-11-2002
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Message 31 of 79 (259736)
11-14-2005 6:43 PM
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Reply to: Message 29 by randman
11-14-2005 6:03 PM
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Thomas Paine denounced him for his over faith and lack of alliance with the more secular French revolution, and Paine was thus rejected by the nation he helped form. Paine left the US to return to Britain and foment revolution there and France. He was a firebrand wherever he went. From what I understand, while he had a lot of issues regarding religion with others, his falling out with Washington occured due to a mistaken belief Washington had snubbed him officially. The idea that he was rejected by "the nation" he helped form as if to suggest that means anything about the nature of the govt is a bit absurd. Indeed it skips over the obvious fact that he did help form that nation and was popular at the time of that formation. Jefferson wrote the Constitution and invited Paine back to the US seven years before his death.
holmes "...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 29 by randman, posted 11-14-2005 6:03 PM | | randman has not replied |
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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4926 days) Posts: 6367 Joined: 05-26-2005
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Message 32 of 79 (259738)
11-14-2005 6:47 PM
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Reply to: Message 30 by Silent H
11-14-2005 6:33 PM
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I am a supporter of religious pluralism in soceity, as is every single Christian I know. Does that mean I am not religious? The simple fact is you don't know what you are talking about. Read the whole address, particularly the first 5 paragraphs.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 30 by Silent H, posted 11-14-2005 6:33 PM | | Silent H has not replied |
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randman
Suspended Member (Idle past 4926 days) Posts: 6367 Joined: 05-26-2005
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Message 33 of 79 (259742)
11-14-2005 6:56 PM
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Reply to: Message 30 by Silent H
11-14-2005 6:33 PM
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Washington's first official act was prayer.
Actually, here is elsewhere I meant first inaugural address. Shall we look at Washington's first official action?
Such being the impressions under which I have, in obedience to the public summons, repaired to the present station, it would be peculiarly improper to omit in this first official act my fervent supplications to that Almighty Being who rules over the universe He considered his official act, note the word "official", should be to offer fervent prayer to God. Let's look at the quote in context and see if this is a side comment of a politician or fundamental to his political philosophy.
Such being the impressions under which I have, in obedience to the public summons, repaired to the present station, it would be peculiarly improper to omit in this first official act my fervent supplications to that Almighty Being who rules over the universe, who presides in the councils of nations, and whose providential aids can supply every human defect, that His benediction may consecrate to the liberties and happiness of the people of the United States a Government instituted by themselves for these essential purposes, and may enable every instrument employed in its administration to execute with success the functions allotted to his charge. In tendering this homage to the Great Author of every public and private good, I assure myself that it expresses your sentiments not less than my own, nor those of my fellow- citizens at large less than either. No people can be bound to acknowledge and adore the Invisible Hand which conducts the affairs of men more than those of the United States. Every step by which they have advanced to the character of an independent nation seems to have been distinguished by some token of providential agency; and in the important revolution just accomplished in the system of their united government the tranquil deliberations and voluntary consent of so many distinct communities from which the event has resulted can not be compared with the means by which most governments have been established without some return of pious gratitude, along with an humble anticipation of the future blessings which the past seem to presage. These reflections, arising out of the present crisis, have forced themselves too strongly on my mind to be suppressed. You will join with me, I trust, in thinking that there are none under the influence of which the proceedings of a new and free government can more auspiciously commence.
He closes with:
Having thus imparted to you my sentiments as they have been awakened by the occasion which brings us together, I shall take my present leave; but not without resorting once more to the benign Parent of the Human Race in humble supplication that, since He has been pleased to favor the American people with opportunities for deliberating in perfect tranquillity, and dispositions for deciding with unparalleled unanimity on a form of government for the security of their union and the advancement of their happiness, so His divine blessing may be equally conspicuous in the enlarged views, the temperate consultations, and the wise measures on which the success of this Government must depend. Page Not Found | Yale University All in all, I think Washington's first address is the most religious and religiously motivated speech any president has probably ever given as president to the nation.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 30 by Silent H, posted 11-14-2005 6:33 PM | | Silent H has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 34 by RAZD, posted 11-15-2005 12:35 AM | | randman has replied |
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1432 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: 03-14-2004
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Message 34 of 79 (259784)
11-15-2005 12:35 AM
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Reply to: Message 33 by randman
11-14-2005 6:56 PM
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Re: Washington's first official act was prayer.
Seeing as you posted exactly the same thing in two threads you will get the same rebuttal: It's a political speech, by a leader that knows that it is not necessary to antagonise the troops ... ... and he still refers to a deist god -- that rules the universe by natural laws. You didn't answer the question on that issue again. This does not make him an advocate for making a theocracy out of the USA or to bend it to one religion over others. Note:
After George Washington's death, Christians made an intense effort to claim him as one of their own. This effort was based largely on the grounds that Washington had regularly attended services with his wife at an Episcopal Church and had served as a vestryman in the church. Wilson had inquired of the Reverend Abercrombie [identified earlier as the rector of the church Washington had attended] concerning Washing ton's religious views. Abercrombie's response was brief and to the point "Sir, Washington was a Deist" (Remsberg, p. 110). ... when the clergy addressed General Washington, on his departure from the government, it was observed in their consultation that he had never, on any occasion, said a word to the public which showed a belief in the Christian religion, ... Dr. Moncure D. Conway, ... "In editing a volume of Washington's private letters for the Long Island Historical Society, I have been much impressed by indications that this great historic personality represented the Liberal religious tendency of his time. That tendency was to respect religious organizations as part of the social order, which required some minister to visit the sick, bury the dead, and perform marriages. It was considered in nowise inconsistent with disbelief of the clergyman's doctrines to contribute to his support, or even to be a vestryman in his church. In his many letters to his adopted nephew and younger relatives, he admonishes them about their manners and morals, but in no case have I been able to discover any suggestion that they should read the Bible, keep the Sabbath, go to church, or any warning against Infidelity." "The last and least skeptical of these rationalists [Washington] loaded his First Inaugural Address with appeals to the 'Great Author,' 'Almighty Being,' 'invisible hand,' and 'benign parent of the human race,' but apparently could not bring himself to speak the word 'God' ('The United States in 1787,' 1787 The Grand Convention, New York W, W, Norton & Co., 1987, p. 36)."
These terms by which Washington referred to "God" in his inaugural address are dead giveaways that he was Deistic in his views. The uninformed see the expression "nature's God" in documents like the Declaration of Independence and wrongly interpret it as evidence of Christian belief in those who wrote and signed it, but in reality it is a sure indication that the document was Deistic in origin. Deists preferred not to use the unqualified term "God" in their conversation and writings because of its Christian connotations. Accordingly, they substituted expressions like those that Washington used in his inaugural address or else they referred to their creator as "nature's God," the deity who had created the world and then left it to operate by natural law. Moncure Conway also stated that "(t)here is no evidence to show that Washington, even in early life, was a believer in Christianity" (Ibid.). Remsberg also noted that Conway stated that Washington's father had been a Deist and that his mother "was not excessively religious" (Ibid.). The people poking there little noses into the personal life of Washington and his family about his personal private religious beliefs were the forefathers of the fundamentalists. Why can't they let people be?
randman writes: All in all, I think Washington's first address is the most religious and religiously motivated speech any president has probably ever given as president to the nation. So therefore we should teach Deist theology in public high school science classes? Enjoy.
we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmerican.Zen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 33 by randman, posted 11-14-2005 6:56 PM | | randman has replied |
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randman
Suspended Member (Idle past 4926 days) Posts: 6367 Joined: 05-26-2005
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Message 35 of 79 (259788)
11-15-2005 12:57 AM
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Reply to: Message 34 by RAZD
11-15-2005 12:35 AM
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Re: Washington's first official act was prayer.
So are you admitting that George Washington was a deeply religious man, but a Deist, or what are you claiming? The simple fact is he was deeply religious, and so was his inaugural speech. It was not some flim-flam speech created to deceive people as to his true beliefs, as you claim. No, that was what he honestly felt. Whether he was a Christian or a Deist, or a Christian with a Deist theology makes no difference in his beliefs in terms of politics and religion, specifically that he as president should acknowledge and thank God for His providence and mercy. I have posted his words, which are very clear. You refuse to accept them. The only reason I can think of is that you don't want to accept reality. You fail to realize the discussion is about religion in general, and specifically God and the government, and thus your point that you consider him not a Christian is totally meaningless because either way, he believed that it was God that enabled the new nation to form. He strongly and vividly expresses his faith in his first inaugural address. What more proof do you want?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 34 by RAZD, posted 11-15-2005 12:35 AM | | RAZD has not replied |
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randman
Suspended Member (Idle past 4926 days) Posts: 6367 Joined: 05-26-2005
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Message 36 of 79 (259792)
11-15-2005 1:04 AM
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Reply to: Message 34 by RAZD
11-15-2005 12:35 AM
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Re: Washington's first official act was prayer.
Also, Washington was not a Deist in the same sort of fashion as someone like Thomas Paine. Both Jimmy Carter and George Bush are evangelicals, but they still differ. If Washington was a Deist, he must have been his own brand of Deism because a Deist of the sort you guys claim would think it silly to thank God or pray because they would not think God would even hear them. Washington clearly believed in a Christian concept of the Creator, and if you read the Declaration, you will see that the Creator's relationship to man is straight out of the Bible, namely that they state man is created in the image of God, which is a biblical concept out of Genesis. So you need to at least take some time to learn what you are talking about. Washington also was a regular church member, which contrary to your claim is evidence he was a Christian of some sort. Whether he really believed in all of the Bible or what is besides the point. His politics were essentially in line with Christianity and the ideas of a Christian God that listens to and hears prayer, and who "rules" over nations. He probably believed that He rules via natural law, and incidentally so do many Christians. So on every point, you lose the argument. He prays. He thanks God. He claims God rules over the nations. He thinks that God intervened to create semi-miraculous events, basically claiming that the amazing good luck for the new nation was the result of God intervening in the war and world affairs. Does that sound like a Deist to you? Personally, I think a reasonable person would say Washington held to a mixture of Christian and Deist beliefs and theology. That doesn't mean he wasn't a Christian, nor that he was. This message has been edited by randman, 11-15-2005 01:05 AM
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 34 by RAZD, posted 11-15-2005 12:35 AM | | RAZD has not replied |
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nwr
Member Posts: 6412 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: 08-08-2005 Member Rating: 4.5
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Message 37 of 79 (259794)
11-15-2005 1:18 AM
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Reply to: Message 36 by randman
11-15-2005 1:04 AM
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Re: Washington's first official act was prayer.
He prays.
What you are calling prayer reads like a political speech. His words are clearly addressed to his audience, not to his Deity.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 36 by randman, posted 11-15-2005 1:04 AM | | randman has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 38 by randman, posted 11-15-2005 1:22 AM | | nwr has replied |
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randman
Suspended Member (Idle past 4926 days) Posts: 6367 Joined: 05-26-2005
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Message 38 of 79 (259796)
11-15-2005 1:22 AM
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Reply to: Message 37 by nwr
11-15-2005 1:18 AM
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Re: Washington's first official act was prayer.
He is nonetheless giving thanks, which is a form of prayer. Read the speech. That is not a Deist speech. I don't doubt he was influenced in his beliefs by Deism, but at the same time, his basic ideas about God are very Christian, and very Jewish as well, by the way.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 37 by nwr, posted 11-15-2005 1:18 AM | | nwr has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 39 by nwr, posted 11-15-2005 1:24 AM | | randman has replied | | | Message 48 by Phat, posted 11-15-2005 1:56 AM | | randman has replied |
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nwr
Member Posts: 6412 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: 08-08-2005 Member Rating: 4.5
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Message 39 of 79 (259797)
11-15-2005 1:24 AM
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Reply to: Message 38 by randman
11-15-2005 1:22 AM
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Re: Washington's first official act was prayer.
He didn't mention Jesus once. I know some atheists who say similar things, though perhaps not quite as eloquently.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 38 by randman, posted 11-15-2005 1:22 AM | | randman has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 41 by randman, posted 11-15-2005 1:33 AM | | nwr has replied |
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1371 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: 05-21-2004
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Message 40 of 79 (259799)
11-15-2005 1:32 AM
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Reply to: Message 36 by randman
11-15-2005 1:04 AM
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The Declaration of Independence v. The Bible
a Deist of the sort you guys claim would think it silly to thank God or pray because they would not think God would even hear them. Washington clearly believed in a Christian concept of the Creator, i've been called a deist before.
and if you read the Declaration, you will see that the Creator's relationship to man is straight out of the Bible, namely that they state man is created in the image of God, which is a biblical concept out of Genesis. quote:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
i'm sorry, where's the bit about man being made in the image of god?
that all men are created equal where is this in the bible? i found:
quote:
Deu 20:16 But of the cities of these people, which the LORD thy God doth give thee [for] an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:
Deu 20:17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; [namely], the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee:
and generally a lot of passages justifying why other races are inferior, including arabs (ishmael), the ammonites (ben-ammi), and a few others.
that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, quote:
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin [is] death;
quote:
Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.
isn't it central to christianity that we all deserve death?
Liberty quote:
Deu 15:17 Then thou shalt take an aul, and thrust [it] through his ear unto the door, and he shall be thy servant for ever. And also unto thy maidservant thou shalt do likewise.
and the pursuit of Happiness. quote:
1Ti 5:6 But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth.
quote:
Jam 5:5 Ye have lived in pleasure on the earth, and been wanton; ye have nourished your hearts, as in a day of slaughter.
Jam 5:6 Ye have condemned [and] killed the just; [and] he doth not resist you.
i can find A LOT of these. the general biblical attitude is quite opposed to pursuing your own happiness. i fail to see what these have in common. This message has been edited by arachnophilia, 11-15-2005 01:33 AM
אָרַח
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 36 by randman, posted 11-15-2005 1:04 AM | | randman has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 42 by randman, posted 11-15-2005 1:37 AM | | arachnophilia has replied |
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randman
Suspended Member (Idle past 4926 days) Posts: 6367 Joined: 05-26-2005
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Message 41 of 79 (259800)
11-15-2005 1:33 AM
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Reply to: Message 39 by nwr
11-15-2005 1:24 AM
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Re: Washington's first official act was prayer.
You know any atheists that thank God, who "rules among the nations", for providentially blessing them with good fortune? I don't think so buddy. That's BS on your part. But once again, not mentioning Jesus does not mean the man was not religious, nor that he was lying in stating that they owed their blessings to God who intervened for them. Moreover, did Bush refer to Jesus in some of his speeches? He referred to God too, but that doesn't mean he isn't a Christian. Same with Jimmy Carter. But let's say he didn't believe Jesus rose from the dead. So what? Does that make the man less a believer in God? No, it does not.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 39 by nwr, posted 11-15-2005 1:24 AM | | nwr has replied |
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randman
Suspended Member (Idle past 4926 days) Posts: 6367 Joined: 05-26-2005
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Re: The Declaration of Independence v. The Bible
Did you read the part that says "created"? As far as your quote-mining in the Bible, it's pathetic since the Bible says all men are created in the image of God, and the gospels state in Christ, there is neither Jew nor Gentile and thus speaking to the equality of mankind. Sorry, but you lose the argument here. If you want to say he did not accept some Christian tenets, fine. That's your opinion, but he clearly believed in a Creator God that created men equal, as the biblical account states, that God is good as the Bible states, and that God rules among the nations causing some efforts He blesses to acheive good success where they would normally fall if left up to their own devices, which is also a biblical concept. As far as being free to pursue one's own happiness, the concept of freedom is also in the Bible. Even in parts of the Bible that say not to be political and rebel from slavery, it also states any man that can gain his own freedom should. The original phrase was "the pursuit of wealth" but was changed to pursuit of happiness. The idea is a man should be free to pursue his own destiny, and was pointedly linking freedom in general to economic freedom. This message has been edited by randman, 11-15-2005 01:39 AM
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1371 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: 05-21-2004
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Message 43 of 79 (259805)
11-15-2005 1:38 AM
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Reply to: Message 41 by randman
11-15-2005 1:33 AM
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belief in a god v. christianity
But let's say he didn't believe Jesus rose from the dead. So what? Does that make the man less a believer in God? No, it does not. no, but that makes him something besides a christian, doesn't it?
אָרַח
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 41 by randman, posted 11-15-2005 1:33 AM | | randman has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 44 by randman, posted 11-15-2005 1:42 AM | | arachnophilia has not replied |
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randman
Suspended Member (Idle past 4926 days) Posts: 6367 Joined: 05-26-2005
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Re: belief in a god v. christianity
Plenty of people among the religious right are not Christians either. Whether or not Washington was a born-again Christian has little to do with his view of God in relationship to the nations and to the USA. He beleived and stated we owed our independence not just due to our own efforts or chance, but to God who sovreignly guided events in our favor. Whether he was a Christian then does not change he had pretty biblical view of God's dealings with the nations. He also spoke highly of the need for religion, and was a very, very religious person. His character and politics were part and parcel of his faith, and he makes that pretty darn clear.
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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1371 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: 05-21-2004
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Message 45 of 79 (259813)
11-15-2005 1:48 AM
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Reply to: Message 42 by randman
11-15-2005 1:37 AM
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Re: The Declaration of Independence v. The Bible
Did you read the part that says "created"? yes, i did. consider this is 100 years before darwin, i'd say "created" is about the only for that they could have chosen.
As far as your quote-mining in the Bible excuse me? i'm not quotemining the bible. try reading it sometime, it's a good book. the bible condones, no, explicitly commands the genocide of seven nations in canaan. did you miss that part? it's the entire book of joshua. the bible mocks other cultures as being inferior -- it calls the ammonites bastards, the products of incest. it calls the arabs illegitimate. the bible has whole sets of commandments on how to treat your slaves. granted, it says you should let them go after 7 years, but it's still slavery. you can find these commandments in deuteronomy and leviticus, as well as slavery used as payment (remember how there got to be 12 tribes of israel? it's pretty integral to the story) the bible says that we are not gauranteed life, rather that we deserve death. all of us. that's the foundation of the christian faith -- that we need a saviour. that's a bit MORE than integral, that's a key tenet. the bible strong warns against hedonism, and the pursuit of happiness. it instructs us to live for god, and for our fellow man, not for ourselves. it tells us to follow christ's example. it tells us to give up our possessions. it's not quotemining. read the darned book.
Sorry, but you lose the argument here. i'm sorry, but that doesn't cut it. shall i post more? i've got pages on the pursuit of happiness, pages on races that should die and why, and pages on slavery in the bible. saying "sorry, you lose" doesn't win you the argument. especially not since most people here have READ the bible.
If you want to say he did not accept some Christian tenets, fine. That's your opinion, but he clearly believed in a Creator God that created men equal, that's the basic premise of deism. you're turn to quotemine, randman!
God that created men equal, as the biblical account states, where does the biblical account state that men are created equal? where does it say that god gave us the inalienable rights to life? to liberty? to the pursuit of happiness?
אָרַח
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 42 by randman, posted 11-15-2005 1:37 AM | | randman has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 46 by randman, posted 11-15-2005 1:55 AM | | arachnophilia has replied |
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