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Author Topic:   Teacher Fired for Disagreeing With Literal Interpretation of Bible
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 28 of 78 (427481)
10-11-2007 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by anglagard
09-25-2007 1:04 AM


As a community college librarian in the US, I consider this a clear and blatant violation of the principle of separation of church and state ...
Er ... which Bitterman broke, surely?
He should have used more neutral language, maybe something beginning with: "All the evidence available to historians ..."
But if he just says "Genesis is a fairy tale", then isn't that the state treading on the toes of the churches?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by anglagard, posted 09-25-2007 1:04 AM anglagard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Taz, posted 10-11-2007 6:55 PM Dr Adequate has replied
 Message 31 by anglagard, posted 10-11-2007 7:47 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 38 of 78 (427557)
10-11-2007 11:25 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Taz
10-11-2007 6:55 PM


On a personal level, what's wrong with that? Pastors and reverends regularly tell their livestocks that those of us that have been and are in academia are dumbasses.
On a personal level, nothing. I'm just considering what the U.S. Constitution actually says, as it has been applied by the courts.
On a professional level, what's the difference between saying genesis is a fairy tale and cinderella is a fairy tale?
I guess the absence of a Church of Cinderella.
I'm not saying that it makes perfect sense, I'm saying that it may be the law.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Taz, posted 10-11-2007 6:55 PM Taz has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 39 of 78 (427559)
10-11-2007 11:45 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by anglagard
10-11-2007 7:47 PM


Re: Public Colleges and the Socratic Teaching Method
In the US colleges and universities philosophy classes are usually taught using the Socratic method which means that a controversial topic such as abortion, gay marriage, and even fundamentalist dogma may be discussed to get the students to critically examine their assumptions. Since this is a public college no one is forcing the students to attend or even change their beliefs, just to discuss the reasons behind their positions.
But I think that it may overstep the line when instead of asking the students to "critically examine their assumptions", or presenting them with the evidence that their assumptions are a lot of horsepucky, the teacher tells them that their assumptions are a lot of horsepucky.
Now, it has been asked why this is different from blowing away belief in Cinderella, and I'll say again --- the bleedin' First Amendment. It's not perfect, but it's the law, it's what's there, it's why the forces of rightness won the Dover Panda Trial.
This guy Bitterman may well have broken the law by what he's reported to have said.
Perhaps, if he wanted to be a nice guy and make a technically more accurate statement. However, Genesis contradicts itself in just the order of creation in the two exclusive stories. Therefore, logically, at least part of the chapter must not be literally true and so 'myth' is a fair description.
But your argument here is that you're right and they're wrong. Of course I agree with you.
But if you were a creationist standing up for a teacher who taught creationist blah, I bet you could explain how "evolution contradicts the second law of thermodynamics, and so 'myth' is a fair description". And if I was a creationist, then I'd agree with that.
Democracy is tricky, isn't it?
Only if it is forced upon a church in the middle of a sermon, or upon a religious college as part of the curriculum standards. To argue that some concepts, such as fundamentalist religious dogma are off-limits for discussion in a philosophy class in a public, tax-supported college or university is itself the real violation of state/church separation.
But there's a difference between "off limits for discussion" and "off limits for pronouncement from on high".
If some guy had told his students that Genesis was literally true, and had been sacked for that, would you be complaining that Genesis was "off limits for discussion", and talking about "intellectual freedom", or would you realise that he had in fact been doing something illegal?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by anglagard, posted 10-11-2007 7:47 PM anglagard has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by anglagard, posted 10-13-2007 12:32 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 47 of 78 (427866)
10-13-2007 9:18 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by anglagard
10-13-2007 12:32 AM


Re: Public Colleges are not Secondary Schools
The Dover Trial concerned a public high school where students are generally required to attend, unless they can show they are homeschooled or are attending a religious school. No one is required to attend a given public college or university.
I believe that this is what I was overlooking.
I doubt that, name the law.
I was thinking of the Establishment Clause. I now suspect that I was wrong.
As the rest of your post doesn't seem much related to what I was thinking, I sha'n't answer it in detail.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by anglagard, posted 10-13-2007 12:32 AM anglagard has not replied

  
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