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Author Topic:   Hovind busted, finally
subbie
Member (Idle past 1255 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 121 of 308 (357691)
10-20-2006 10:11 AM
Reply to: Message 118 by PaulK
10-20-2006 9:20 AM


Sentencing guidelines
Federal sentencing guidelines are rather complex. The penalty Hovind would face will depend on exactly what he's convicted on and the amount of tax he's failed to pay. In addition, the guidelines take into account previous convictions. Without knowing these details, it's impossible to give more than a very broad range of possible sentences.
However, it's extraordinarily unlikely that the judge will simply ignore the guidelines. The guidelines are mandatory in virtually all cases. What's more, it's not even very likely that the judge will even depart from the guidelines. Given what I've heard about Hovind's complete disregard for the law and his flimsy excuses, I'd say it's more likely that any departure would be upward, rather than downward.

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by PaulK, posted 10-20-2006 9:20 AM PaulK has not replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 122 of 308 (357717)
10-20-2006 12:00 PM


Update from the Pensacola News Journal.
---
How much porridge?
I'm not sure what the last count falls under, but for the first 57 these would be the relevant laws:
Title 26, 7201 : Any person who willfully attempts in any manner to evade or defeat any tax imposed by this title or the payment thereof shall, in addition to other penalties provided by law, be guilty of a felony and, upon conviction thereof, shall be fined not more than $100,000 ($500,000 in the case of a corporation), or imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both, together with the costs of prosecution.
Title 31, 5322 : (b) A person willfully violating this subchapter or a regulation prescribed or order issued under this subchapter (except section 5315 or 5324 of this title or a regulation prescribed under section 5315 or 5324), or willfully violating a regulation prescribed under section 21 of the Federal Deposit Insurance Act or section 123 of Public Law 91-508, while violating another law of the United States or as part of a pattern of any illegal activity involving more than $100,000 in a 12-month period, shall be fined not more than $500,000, imprisoned for not more than 10 years, or both.
Looking here, we find the sentencing guidelines for tax fraud.
Therre are several aspects to this.
* The guidelines say the tax charges should be lumped together.
* His sentence would be reduced if he accepted responsibility ... HA HA HA HA.
* It's increased if he used "sophisticated means" to evade tax, which presumably includes structuring transactions to evade reporting requirements ("smurfing").
* It depends on the tax loss.
Now, according to the prosecutor: "Hovind, also known as "Dr. Dino," failed to pay about $470,000 in federal income, Social Security and Medicare taxes for his ministry employees between March 31, 2001, and Jan. 31, 2004." *
So that gives us a figure between 41 and 51 months for the tax fraud.
As far as the "smurfing" goes, the guidelines say "all conduct violating the tax laws should be considered as part of the same course of conduct or common scheme or plan". *
So it may be that these offenses will just be considered part of the same crime. On this point, I'm slightly out of my depth. If it's considered a separate offense, then that would be an extra 10 - 16 months. * *
Given Hovind's behavior in court so far, his tax protestor antics, his harrassment of officials, et cetera, I should think the judge will use his discretion to give him as much stir as he possibly can. Judges hate tax protestors.
---
Kent Hovind explains why he doesn't have to pay taxes.
Dollars are not money, have no value, and so are not subject to taxation:
"Declarant states in the course of the year or years in question, all compensation Declarant received, regardless of source, were promissory deferred payments in the form of Federal Reserve Notes or bank credits denominated in Federal Reserve Notes, the latter redeemable solely in Federal Reserve Notes and other obligations of the United States. Declarant did not receive payment in current coin of the United States authorized by Article I 10 of the Constitution of the United States or in any other commodity with inherent or intrinsic value."
Kent Hovind is not a resident of the United States, because the term "United States" does not include any of the States of the Union:
"Declarant is not now and never has been a citizen or resident of the geographical United States, including the District of Columbia, Puerto Rico, the Virgin Islands, Guam, American Samoa, and the Northern Mariana Islands."
The term "whoever" does not include Kent Hovind:
"Declarant is not nor has ever claimed to be a “whoever” as that term is construed in the statutes."
Kent Hovind is not a person:
"Declarant is not nor has ever claimed to be a “person” as that term is construed in the statutes."
BWAHAHAHAHA!
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 123 of 308 (357718)
10-20-2006 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by Percy
10-20-2006 9:26 AM


Not just the IRS
Your interesting position on federal taxes aside, while it is only the IRS that is after Hovind at present, keep in mind that he has not been paying unemployment or social security taxes for his employees, either.
It is not just the IRS. Hovind also refused to get building permits or construction safety inspections for all the construction in building Dino Land.
from this link
Owners of the park, which shows how dinosaurs may have roamed the Earth just a few thousand years ago, did not obtain a building permit before constructing the building in 2002. They have argued in and out of court that it violates their "deeply held" religious beliefs, and that the church-run facility does not have to obtain permits.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by Percy, posted 10-20-2006 9:26 AM Percy has not replied

Replies to this message:
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subbie
Member (Idle past 1255 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 124 of 308 (357751)
10-20-2006 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by jar
10-20-2006 12:01 PM


Re: Not just the IRS
They have argued in and out of court that it violates their "deeply held" religious beliefs....
I suspect that this is the first honest thing this jackass has said in the whole matter. What he doesn't say is that the "deeply held religious belief" that it violates is his belief that he gets to keep every nickel that touches his grubby little hands.

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by jar, posted 10-20-2006 12:01 PM jar has not replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 125 of 308 (357755)
10-20-2006 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by Buzsaw
10-19-2006 6:34 PM


Off topic, but everyone else is doing it.
I disagree. I wouldn't complain if a highly progressive income tax was the only source of revenue for the government, although I would prefer the addition of a wealth and/or inheritance tax as well.

"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one." -- George Bernard Shaw

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Buzsaw, posted 10-19-2006 6:34 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 126 of 308 (357866)
10-20-2006 9:56 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by Percy
10-20-2006 9:26 AM


To you and to the others, I have never endorsed Hovind's modus operendi nor have I praised his lifestyle and much of his creo argument . I simply made a statement regarding the law and questioning as to whether Hovind was breaking some aspects of the law regarding his case. I'm not a lawyer but it seems that if it's taken the feds this long to get him in court he must have some lawful legitimacy. It's likely good that he's being tried so as to determine whether the law can bust him or if he does have a viable defense. It should be an interesting case to watch.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by Percy, posted 10-20-2006 9:26 AM Percy has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by Chiroptera, posted 10-20-2006 10:03 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 129 by PaulK, posted 10-21-2006 5:33 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 131 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-21-2006 7:04 AM Buzsaw has replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 127 of 308 (357867)
10-20-2006 10:03 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by Buzsaw
10-20-2006 9:56 PM


quote:
I'm not a lawyer but it seems that if it's taken the feds this long to get him in court he must have some lawful legitimacy.
What a refreshing attitude. Most conservatives are the "law and order" type who seem to feel that they are trying you then you must be guilty of something.
-
quote:
It's likely good that he's being tried so as to determine whether the law can bust him or if he does have a viable defense.
Yes, that is what a trial is supposed to be, an open examination of the evidence so that the public can see whether the facts indicate the accused is guilty.

"My country is the world, and my religion is to do good." -- Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Buzsaw, posted 10-20-2006 9:56 PM Buzsaw has not replied

kuresu
Member (Idle past 2514 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 128 of 308 (357874)
10-20-2006 10:40 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by Dr Adequate
10-20-2006 4:07 AM


I'm not sure what he has in mind as a substitute, but we Brits still have a royal family, and would be happy to restore the status quo ante bellum. There'll be no income tax, but we'll charge a duty on tea.
(don't charge on tea--we don't drink it anymore, you know. we did throw it overboard, afterall )
well, at least Liza II is a hell of a lot better than Georgie III. Well, Hovind might want us to go back to the Articles of Confed--there the federal government only gets money from the states if the states are willing to give them some money.

Want to help give back to the world community? Did you know that your computer can help? Join the newest TeamEvC Climate Modelling to help improve climate predictions for a better tomorrow.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-20-2006 4:07 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 129 of 308 (357889)
10-21-2006 5:33 AM
Reply to: Message 126 by Buzsaw
10-20-2006 9:56 PM


We know what you are suggesting. You are suggesting that it is good to be a greedy liar who tries to shirk his share of the tax burden

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Buzsaw, posted 10-20-2006 9:56 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 130 of 308 (357901)
10-21-2006 6:43 AM


More amusing updates. Hovind Pope
Every day more amusement comes from the case.
Hovind isn't a whoever, he isn't a person, but he is like the pope.
"He tried to stress to me that he was like the pope and this was like the Vatican," Seminole attorney David Charles Gibbs testified at Hovind's trial before U.S. District Judge Casey Rodgers.
The prosecution hopes to rest its case Tuesday. The defense is expected to take at a week or more to make its case.
Here's to many more days of amusement. I can't wait to hear the defense.
Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-21-2006 7:12 AM Modulous has not replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 131 of 308 (357904)
10-21-2006 7:04 AM
Reply to: Message 126 by Buzsaw
10-20-2006 9:56 PM


To you and to the others, I have never endorsed Hovind's modus operendi nor have I praised his lifestyle and much of his creo argument . I simply made a statement regarding the law and questioning as to whether Hovind was breaking some aspects of the law regarding his case.
Well yes. He evaded tax.
I'm not a lawyer but it seems that if it's taken the feds this long to get him in court he must have some lawful legitimacy.
Like Al Capone. Oh, wait ...
Look, you've seen Hovind's own statement of his case: dollars are not money; he is not a person; and none of the States of the Union are in the United States. And you think he might have "lawful legitimacy"?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by Buzsaw, posted 10-20-2006 9:56 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by Buzsaw, posted 10-21-2006 5:51 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 132 of 308 (357905)
10-21-2006 7:12 AM
Reply to: Message 130 by Modulous
10-21-2006 6:43 AM


Linky link.
"The defense is expected to take a week or more ..."
They are, they really are, I swear it, going to go through every tax protestor argument in the book. Hooray!
When I first came across tax protestor arguments, I thought to myself: "Tax protestors are to the law what YECs are to science."
And how right I was.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by Modulous, posted 10-21-2006 6:43 AM Modulous has not replied

Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 133 of 308 (357995)
10-21-2006 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by Dr Adequate
10-21-2006 7:04 AM


DA writes:
Well yes. He evaded tax.
1. I evade tax. You likely evade tax and so does every wise
American. There's legitimate ways of legally evading taxes and there's illigitimate ways. The EvC peanut gallery can speculate on all kinds of pharasaical accusations and judgements but in the end the courts will decide which it is with Hovind.
2. I'm quite sure Hovind knows more law than anyone of his accusers here, having used it all these years. I'm not defending him. I'm not selling him short as stupid either. Right now, I'm on the fence on this until more facts surface but certainly not trying and convicticting the man on the spot as most seem to be wanting to do here.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-21-2006 7:04 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by subbie, posted 10-21-2006 5:57 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 135 by jar, posted 10-21-2006 6:05 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 139 by nwr, posted 10-21-2006 7:09 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 147 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-22-2006 4:02 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 148 by PaulK, posted 10-22-2006 2:00 PM Buzsaw has not replied

subbie
Member (Idle past 1255 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 134 of 308 (357996)
10-21-2006 5:57 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by Buzsaw
10-21-2006 5:51 PM


I'm absolutely certain Hovind doesn't know more about law than I do.
What's more, given that most of what Hovind appears to believe about the law is dead wrong, in a sense anyone who knows nothing about the law, but doesn't believe a bunch of things that are wrong, knows more than Hovind.
Edited by subbie, : Typo

Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by Buzsaw, posted 10-21-2006 5:51 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by Buzsaw, posted 10-21-2006 6:42 PM subbie has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 135 of 308 (357998)
10-21-2006 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by Buzsaw
10-21-2006 5:51 PM


I'm not selling him short as stupid either.
Oh, he's not stupid. After all he gets all the suckers to pony up the sheckels. It is not the conmen that are stupid.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by Buzsaw, posted 10-21-2006 5:51 PM Buzsaw has not replied

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