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Author Topic:   Commonalities Of Accounts Of A Universal Flood?
kuresu
Member (Idle past 2514 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 3 of 92 (353686)
10-02-2006 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Dr Adequate
10-02-2006 2:31 PM


off of the top of my head, I know that in the southwest US, many of the origin stories do not involve a flood. The one I'm thinking of (though I can't remember the tribe) is where they used up each world, until they got to ours on the very top level.
The flood myths I am familiar with are from Sumer and the OT. I would imagine that the egyptian origin myth would involve water--particularly floods, seeing as how the nile floods were the source of life for them. I would wager that of all the myth stories, wherever the first of those people came from, if there was flooding, and if it was agricultural, there will be a flood involved. Where no flooding required, but agriculture is, then there will be water involved, but probably no flood. If there is no flooding, and not even agriculture, there will be no flood, no water. Just my gueses, mind you.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-02-2006 2:31 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Coragyps, posted 10-02-2006 4:40 PM kuresu has replied

  
kuresu
Member (Idle past 2514 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 5 of 92 (353694)
10-02-2006 4:54 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Coragyps
10-02-2006 4:40 PM


I was actually thinking it was Hopi, let me check real quick like
checking . . .checking . . .checking . . .
okay, not Hopi, but it is similar to the Zuni, and defintely is navajo. I don't know their language group though (Zuni). In the Zuni version, there is a hell of a lot of water, the purpose being to find the "middle place", which is where they would live, which just so happens to be the southwest US. Also, they don't go through multiple worlds, but come out from under the world--or rather, if I've it right, their creators.
It's looking that my "guess" is at best, way off.

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kuresu
Member (Idle past 2514 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 12 of 92 (353729)
10-02-2006 7:52 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Faith
10-02-2006 7:35 PM


well, I'd say that the noah flood definetly has a myth feeling to it--especially the longetivity of live part (people several hundreds of years old!)(covering the water all the way up to the tops of the mountains!) however . . .
as to the universality, why should the others be equally represented if they are merely local events (the floods, that is). Maybe because along with death, the floods represent life. Out of the death and destruction of life, new life arises. Fires do not do this, earthquakes do not do this.
In every flood story, there is always (as far as I know) a new beginning, a new life. Plus, there is the association of water with life. Fire has nothing linking it with life, nor do earhtquakes, volcanic explosions. We need water. More than any other thing, we need water to live (case in point--man can live no more than a week, if that, without water. he can live almost a month without food).
As to the egyptians, why would they make a big deal out of one flood? Well, perhaps there was a really big flood in their mythical past, and they needed to explain that if you don't worship your gods, they won't send this highly benefical floods, but a massive one to wipe us out. just my conjecture, mind you.

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kuresu
Member (Idle past 2514 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 15 of 92 (353736)
10-02-2006 8:16 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Dr Adequate
10-02-2006 8:12 PM


more often than not we live in forests (at least ver early on in our history (pre written era). Granted, it's those that live in flood plains and other very fertile areas that developed civilization first.
cool list, though

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kuresu
Member (Idle past 2514 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 25 of 92 (353757)
10-02-2006 9:13 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Faith
10-02-2006 9:03 PM


oops.
Faith writes:
Faith writes:
The universality of flood stories, were they all merely local events, should be matched by a universality of all kinds of disaster stories, it seems to me. Where are the universal earthquake stories, the universal forest fire stories?
coragyps? writes:
There are many myths about both these things, if one is inclined to look. Here is a long list of myths about quakes.
faith writes:
Excellent support for my position, thank you. These are myths devised to explain the periodic recurrence of the phenomenon of earthquakes -- earthquakes, plural. In other words they are not about one huge worldwide earthquake. This demonstrates that primitive people know the difference between a recurring event and a worldwide one-time event. The flood stories, by contrast, do not describe periodic floods, recurrent floods, but a worldwide event that everyone here is trying to rationalize away in terms of their limitations of viewpoint.
here's the problem with your analysis. As you originally wrote, if the floods featured in the myths were localized, why aren't there, oh, say, earthquake myths in large numbers. We showed a list of earthquake myths. This doesn't mean that that they (the originals) knew the difference between a recurrent and single event. (they did, but, that's not the point here). This means that the floods featured in the myths are localized, whether the ancients realized it or not.
here's why:
1)global flood talked about by many cultures? If floods actually local, why not earthquake myths all over the world?
2)there are many earthquake myths
c)since there are earthquake myths, then the floods were localized.
I haven't read the earthquake myths, but my suspicion is that they are treated as global events, and we do know that global earthquakes don't happen (technically, they do, but the effect of the shockwaves on the otherside are so insignificant as to not even be felt)(so that means that the destruction with an earthquake is not global)
so that means that there is no global flood, just a misunderstanding on the ancients' part.
Edited by kuresu, : No reason given.

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This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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kuresu
Member (Idle past 2514 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 28 of 92 (353761)
10-02-2006 9:23 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Faith
10-02-2006 9:19 PM


Re: Confirmation Bias
haha. two mistakes on your part
first, tudwell was talking about myths not agreeing with the bible being godless, sinning trash, not that the bible is. also, as to that last bit there--I do not need, I repeat, I do not need a savior. I do not need the fall to explain why I want to have sex, for example.
second, you just called your flood a myth. Which means it didn't really happen--as you say
A myth by definition is not truth, though it may or may not contain some truth.
. You then go on to say the "worldwide flood myth". But surely you've been spending your YEC years attempting to prove the biblical flood, no?

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Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Faith, posted 10-02-2006 9:34 PM kuresu has replied

  
kuresu
Member (Idle past 2514 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 35 of 92 (353771)
10-02-2006 9:49 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Faith
10-02-2006 9:34 PM


Re: Confirmation Bias
try again.
tudwell writes:
When a myth or story of another culture deviates from the Bible, it's godless, sinning trash. But when it agrees, then that OBVIOUSLY means the myth is true.
to which you reply
faith writes:
The Bible is universal, it's "catholic," it speaks to the entire world. It consistently explains the human condition throughout the world. Nobody said "godless sinning trash."
you are, to my best interpretation, misreading what he said, which is evidenced by how the bible "is universal" and then following that with the "godless sinning trash". It reads as if you believe he is saying the bible is godless, sinning, trash.
As to the earthquake myths--coragyps confirmed what I though--the myths do talk about global earthquakes, a good number of them too. And my argument still stands. you were arguing that if the floods were actually local why aren't there other destruction myths, such as some about earthquakes, which are local events. Then when coragyps and some one else showed you a list, you claimed it supported the global flood myth. never mind the premises you had set up, which again are
1)global flood is evidenned by univerality of flood myths. if the global flood represented in these myths was acutally locale, why aren't there, oh, say earthquake myths.
2)(filled in by coragyps) there are earthquake myths.
conclusion)the "global flood" wasn't global because there are earthquake myths.
you set that up, you set your own trap into disproving that which you attempted to prove. When you got caught, you tried to turn it around into showing how this was evidence that the ancients knew the difference between localized and global events. Not only is this the wrong conclusion from the premises you helped set up, it's moving the goalposts.
methinks you might need some thinking (esp. on the latter section)

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kuresu
Member (Idle past 2514 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 45 of 92 (353906)
10-03-2006 12:38 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Faith
10-03-2006 12:32 PM


well, the black sea being filled in is definetely a one time event. the disappearance of the bering land bridge (esp. considering the global warming bit) is a one time event. The raising of the sea level by almost two hundred feat is a one time event.
and what if the floods represented are just local, massive thousand year or even ten thousand year floods. Our oral traditions aren't more than six thousand (well, the western ones I'm familiar with) years old. It's not everyday that you have a ten-thousand year flood.

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kuresu
Member (Idle past 2514 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 60 of 92 (354025)
10-03-2006 8:47 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by dwise1
10-03-2006 8:40 PM


Re: I've already given the support for this point
now that's an interesting thought. I can defintely attest to the "corruption" of oral traditions.
THere's a native american story dealing with the cock and mouse (I think that's the name of it). Anywho, it was told to them by a european, and when he came back a year later, it had been metaphorized to a highly different version, one that held true to the tribes beliefs plus quite a bit of extra embellishment. It almost became a sort of origin tale, if I remember correctly.
and that was in one year of retellings.

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