Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 78 (8905 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 04-25-2019 11:43 AM
39 online now:
Diomedes, Faith, JoeT, ooh-child, RAZD, ringo, Tanypteryx (7 members, 32 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: WookieeB
Post Volume:
Total: 850,197 Year: 5,234/19,786 Month: 1,356/873 Week: 252/460 Day: 4/64 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Prev12
3
4567Next
Author Topic:   Commonalities Of Accounts Of A Universal Flood?
Faith
Member
Posts: 30977
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 31 of 92 (353764)
10-02-2006 9:32 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by tudwell
10-02-2006 9:27 PM


Re: Confirmation Bias
Then how do you know the Bible is the one true source direct from God? Maybe it's just another "demon-inspired" myth.

It's the only source there is of an explanation for the tribal propitiation religions that have existed all over the planet. There is no other source of such information.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by tudwell, posted 10-02-2006 9:27 PM tudwell has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by iceage, posted 10-03-2006 1:31 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 1078 days)
Posts: 3808
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


Message 32 of 92 (353765)
10-02-2006 9:34 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Faith
10-02-2006 9:03 PM


Faith writes:

Excellent support for my position, thank you. These are myths devised to explain the periodic recurrence of the phenomenon of earthquakes -- earthquakes, plural. In other words they are not about one huge worldwide earthquake. This demonstrates that primitive people know the difference between a recurring event and a worldwide one-time event. The flood stories, by contrast, do not describe periodic floods, recurrent floods, but a worldwide event that everyone here is trying to rationalize away in terms of their limitations of viewpoint.

Wrong on all counts. Many of those earthquake myths explain great quakes that shook the entire world. Further, earthquakes do not regularly inundate and destroy an entire region, as do 1000 year and 10,000 year floods.

You are simply trying to have it both ways, as has already been noted. And are you trying to suggest there were no floods before the Flood? Otherwise your distinction makes no sense on its face.

Omni writes:

I can tell my wife's account of our wedding is not embellished, because I was there, and because I have photographs. What personal experience and objective record are you comparing the Bible to in order to reach your assessment?

Faith writes:

Well, your link to the myths about the origin of earthquakes is a case in point. Typical myths, imaginative rationalizations.

Yes, and the Biblical account is every bit as typical. You continue to make hand-waving assertions of Biblical exceptionalism without substantiation. In what way is the Flood account less "embellished" and less typical? It is merely another myth from another ancient tribal people, built upon over the millennia like coral and enshrined by a refusal to examine it as critically as any other text. All of your insistences on Biblical exceptionalism are inescapably circular.

I repeat my question: What objective record gives you the ability to judge the Bible as less embellished?


God gave us the earth. We have dominion over the plants, the animals, the trees. God said, ‘Earth is yours. Take it. Rape it. It’s yours.’
--Ann Coulter, Fox-TV: Hannity & Colmes, 20 Jun 01

Save lives! Click here!
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC!
---------------------------------------


This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Faith, posted 10-02-2006 9:03 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Faith, posted 10-02-2006 9:37 PM Omnivorous has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 30977
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 33 of 92 (353766)
10-02-2006 9:34 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by kuresu
10-02-2006 9:23 PM


Re: Confirmation Bias
You haven't read the link to the earthquake myths, and you misread my post. Of course he was talking about godless myths. kuresu, enough conversation with you on this thread for now I think. Spend a little more time reading and thinking please.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by kuresu, posted 10-02-2006 9:23 PM kuresu has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by kuresu, posted 10-02-2006 9:49 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 30977
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 34 of 92 (353767)
10-02-2006 9:37 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Omnivorous
10-02-2006 9:34 PM


Wrong on all counts. Many of those earthquake myths explain great quakes that shook the entire world. Further, earthquakes do not regularly inundate and destroy an entire region, as do 1000 year and 10,000 year floods.

None of the myths discussed, at least as far as I read, mentions a world-wide quake. If one or two do, so what, that would not parallel the similarities in the accounts of world-wide floods.

The rest of what you said is not making any sense.

I'm taking a break from this thread as it's deteriorating into nonsense.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Omnivorous, posted 10-02-2006 9:34 PM Omnivorous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Omnivorous, posted 10-02-2006 9:50 PM Faith has responded

    
kuresu
Member (Idle past 624 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 35 of 92 (353771)
10-02-2006 9:49 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Faith
10-02-2006 9:34 PM


Re: Confirmation Bias
try again.

tudwell writes:

When a myth or story of another culture deviates from the Bible, it's godless, sinning trash. But when it agrees, then that OBVIOUSLY means the myth is true.

to which you reply

faith writes:

The Bible is universal, it's "catholic," it speaks to the entire world. It consistently explains the human condition throughout the world. Nobody said "godless sinning trash."

you are, to my best interpretation, misreading what he said, which is evidenced by how the bible "is universal" and then following that with the "godless sinning trash". It reads as if you believe he is saying the bible is godless, sinning, trash.

As to the earthquake myths--coragyps confirmed what I though--the myths do talk about global earthquakes, a good number of them too. And my argument still stands. you were arguing that if the floods were actually local why aren't there other destruction myths, such as some about earthquakes, which are local events. Then when coragyps and some one else showed you a list, you claimed it supported the global flood myth. never mind the premises you had set up, which again are

1)global flood is evidenned by univerality of flood myths. if the global flood represented in these myths was acutally locale, why aren't there, oh, say earthquake myths.
2)(filled in by coragyps) there are earthquake myths.
conclusion)the "global flood" wasn't global because there are earthquake myths.

you set that up, you set your own trap into disproving that which you attempted to prove. When you got caught, you tried to turn it around into showing how this was evidence that the ancients knew the difference between localized and global events. Not only is this the wrong conclusion from the premises you helped set up, it's moving the goalposts.

methinks you might need some thinking (esp. on the latter section)


Want to help give back to the world community? Did you know that your computer can help? Join the newest TeamEvC Climate Modelling to help improve climate predictions for a better tomorrow.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Faith, posted 10-02-2006 9:34 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 1078 days)
Posts: 3808
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


Message 36 of 92 (353773)
10-02-2006 9:50 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Faith
10-02-2006 9:37 PM


Faith writes:

Omni writes:

Wrong on all counts. Many of those earthquake myths explain great quakes that shook the entire world. Further, earthquakes do not regularly inundate and destroy an entire region, as do 1000 year and 10,000 year floods.

None of the myths discussed, at least as far as I read, mentions a world-wide quake. If one or two do, so what, that would not parallel the similarities in the accounts of world-wide floods.

Floods can readily stretch from horizon to horizon. How else would primitive peoples define the world? When ancient stories say the earth shook, why do you suppose that doesn't mean the whole earth?

Faith writes:

The rest of what you said is not making any sense.

I'm taking a break from this thread as it's deteriorating into nonsense.

And you are collapsing into insult.

Even if I were deteriorating into nonsense, I'd prefer that to your offensive cop-out.

For the third time, in more detail to avoid appearing nonsensical: One measures embellishment by comparing the objective record with the account. What objective measure allows you to label Biblical accounts as less embellished?

Edited by Omnivorous, : embellished embellisment with an h


God gave us the earth. We have dominion over the plants, the animals, the trees. God said, ‘Earth is yours. Take it. Rape it. It’s yours.’
--Ann Coulter, Fox-TV: Hannity & Colmes, 20 Jun 01

Save lives! Click here!
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC!
---------------------------------------


This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Faith, posted 10-02-2006 9:37 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Faith, posted 10-02-2006 10:47 PM Omnivorous has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 30977
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 37 of 92 (353780)
10-02-2006 10:47 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Omnivorous
10-02-2006 9:50 PM


Floods can readily stretch from horizon to horizon. How else would primitive peoples define the world?

Let me guess that a local flood that stretched from horizon to horizon AND completely covered up every last bit of visible land, dwellings, trees, the works, does NOT happen "readily." A flood from which salvation can only be in a boat of some sort. A flood which killed all but a very tiny number of people. These are some of the common elements in the flood stories that suggest kinship with the Noahic flood.

When ancient stories say the earth shook, why do you suppose that doesn't mean the whole earth?

OK, let's say they were parochial enough to assume that earthquakes shake the whole earth. Nevertheless, those earthquake myths are trying to explain a regularly occurring natural event; they are not reporting on a one-time natural event of such gigantic proportions as to kill nearly all of humanity, on a scale that would be preserved in a great number of myths of the world. The various flood myths are NOT trying to explain the phenomena of periodic local flooding, but all have in common this idea of a worldwide disaster that killed all but a very few.

I'm not going to get back to the rest for a while.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Omnivorous, posted 10-02-2006 9:50 PM Omnivorous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Coragyps, posted 10-02-2006 11:14 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 39 by Omnivorous, posted 10-02-2006 11:21 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5381
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002
Member Rating: 8.4


Message 38 of 92 (353782)
10-02-2006 11:14 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Faith
10-02-2006 10:47 PM


OK, let's say they were parochial enough to assume that earthquakes shake the whole earth.

Like these guys?
Ps 18:7 Then the earth shook and trembled; the foundations also of the hills moved and were shaken, because he was wroth.

Job 9:6 Which shaketh the earth out of her place, and the pillars thereof tremble.

Edited by Coragyps, : fix tag


This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Faith, posted 10-02-2006 10:47 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Omnivorous
Member (Idle past 1078 days)
Posts: 3808
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005


Message 39 of 92 (353784)
10-02-2006 11:21 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Faith
10-02-2006 10:47 PM


Okay, let's pick it up tomorrow.

I'd suggest you look at some photographs of Mississippi and Ohio river floods. The horizon is not so far.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Faith, posted 10-02-2006 10:47 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4025 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 40 of 92 (353792)
10-03-2006 1:31 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by Faith
10-02-2006 9:32 PM


Re: Confirmation Bias
quote:
It's the only source there is

Err what about the The Epic of Gilgamesh, produced by the Sumerians?

Sources of Gilgamesh predates any sources of Genesis. Fragments of the Gilgamesh flood story have been found on tablets that date beyond 2k B.C! The Epic of Gilgamesh is the oldest known work of literature.

Gilgamesh has many parallels to the Noah flood. Some like to claim that since the Gilgamesh story is cruder (not by much) it is obviously a "corrupted" copy. However one would expect earlier versions of a myth to be simpler and later copies to be more refined and complex as the result of cultural advancement.

Nice example of a meme!

As another example of meme replication, there are several parallel verses and key concepts of the Epic of Gilgamesh in the Greek epic poem of the Odyssey. More refined and complex!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Faith, posted 10-02-2006 9:32 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14819
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 41 of 92 (353799)
10-03-2006 2:31 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Faith
10-02-2006 9:19 PM


Re: Confirmation Bias
quote:

The Bible is universal, it's "catholic," it speaks to the entire world.

That isn't true. The books of the "OT" are parochial, written by and for the Jews.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Faith, posted 10-02-2006 9:19 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16094
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 9.0


Message 42 of 92 (353814)
10-03-2006 5:17 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Faith
10-02-2006 9:03 PM


In other words they are not about one huge worldwide earthquake.

You are wrong. Almost every myth I've cited claims that earthquakes are worldwide; just like the Noachim flood is claimed to be worldwide.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Faith, posted 10-02-2006 9:03 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-03-2006 11:42 AM Dr Adequate has not yet responded
 Message 44 by Faith, posted 10-03-2006 12:32 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16094
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 9.0


Message 43 of 92 (353881)
10-03-2006 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by Dr Adequate
10-03-2006 5:17 AM


To elaborate on my previous post: if you look at some typical earthquake myth:

"A gigantic frog which carried the world on its back, twitched periodically, producing slight quakes."

This presupposes that the mechanism for earthquakes causes the whole Earth to quake.

I recollect that your computer is making it hard for you to follow links right now, but I assure you this is typical of the quake myths we've looked at.

You are right that there is no conflation of earthquakes into a single event. I think this is easily explained. In all my life I've never seen even a mild flood, let alone a dangerous one; however, living in England, far from any fault lines, I've experienced several earthquakes in my lifetime. A mythical explanation for earthquakes has to explain them as an occasional event.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-03-2006 5:17 AM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by Faith, posted 10-03-2006 12:57 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
Faith
Member
Posts: 30977
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 44 of 92 (353903)
10-03-2006 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Dr Adequate
10-03-2006 5:17 AM


OK, let me try to get this sorted out. The Noahic flood was a ONE TIME event that was worldwide and universally destructive. The earthquake myths may or may not assume worldwide effect, but that doesn't matter, although perhaps I put too much emphasis on that fact. What matters is that they do not pertain to ONE big earthquake that destroyed the entire earth and the vast majority of its inhabitants, which is the only thing that would parallel the flood story. There is no comparison with the flood story which is a one time worldwide event that wiped out most living things.

My original point was that if you claim all the nonbiblical flood stories are merely local although they clearly describe a one time worldwide event from which few escaped, then we should also expect to find other local disasters expanded to worldwide one-time event proportions, since that is the theory about how the primitive mind works implicit in the flood story, and we do not find this: The earthquake myths are merely attempts to explain a periodically occurring natural event. The flood stories are NOT, they are clearly speaking of a ONE TIME FLOOD of worldwide proportions. They are NOT trying to explain why periodic floods happen.

If you have flood stories described as one time worldwide disasters, although in reality, according to you all, they are really only local events the primitive mind exaggerates, then why aren't there other kinds of natural periodically occurring local disasters that are similiarly turned into one-time universal destructive events? A myth that tries to explain how periodic natural events are caused is not the same thing.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-03-2006 5:17 AM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by kuresu, posted 10-03-2006 12:38 PM Faith has not yet responded
 Message 47 by AdminPD, posted 10-03-2006 1:55 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
kuresu
Member (Idle past 624 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 45 of 92 (353906)
10-03-2006 12:38 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Faith
10-03-2006 12:32 PM


well, the black sea being filled in is definetely a one time event. the disappearance of the bering land bridge (esp. considering the global warming bit) is a one time event. The raising of the sea level by almost two hundred feat is a one time event.

and what if the floods represented are just local, massive thousand year or even ten thousand year floods. Our oral traditions aren't more than six thousand (well, the western ones I'm familiar with) years old. It's not everyday that you have a ten-thousand year flood.


Want to help give back to the world community? Did you know that your computer can help? Join the newest TeamEvC Climate Modelling to help improve climate predictions for a better tomorrow.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Faith, posted 10-03-2006 12:32 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Prev12
3
4567Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019