Does Christianity allow for free will?

:ae:Damn, you're good at this.Stephen

Exodus 32:14 - And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people -God repents,32:11 And Moses besought the LORD his God, and said, LORD, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand?Moses has to advise God .32:12 Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people.

This is a message I wrote to a friend, not specifically about "free-will", but definitely in direct relation. It`s foolish for us to assume that we can do anything independent of God the Father. The word "free" by definition means "not controlled by obligation or the will of another", or, "not persuaded by any outside influences", this would include the influence of God also. If we were really "free" then there would be no point in praying for anyone, since God himself couldn`t influence them (and he`s All-Powerful). If we were truly "free" then we could chose to see the truth, whether, or not God wanted us to, but it`s evident that only God can open the eyes of the blind (Deut.29:4), so if he never opens your eyes you`ll never see! Some will say that God gives you a choice, then, if you pick the right one, he`ll influence you to live out that choice, but that wouldn`t even be consistent with scripture. Sure, God sets choices in front of us, just as Pharoah, the choice is already made, for the works were finished from the foundation of the world (age-Greek), which is found in Heb.4:3. Also, he has declared the end from the beginning, and from ancient times, the things that are not yet done, saying my counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure (Isa.46:9-11). There`s so much the scriptures say refuting the false notion of free will that I would be typing for hours, so before you read what I told my friend I`ll say one more thing; Everyone has a heart, and the heart is the will of the man (or woman), but God fashions the heart (Psa.33:15), so then EVERYTHING that is in the will of the man to do is because God made it so...........Enjoy!Anyway, so you know, I believe that eventually, God shall recieve the restitution of All things (Acts.3:19-21) in the dispensation of the fulness of times (Eph.1:10), and when that happens, God shall be All in All (1Cor.15:28). For no man can say that Jesus is Lord, but by the Holy Ghost (Spirit--same thing, 1Cor.12:3), and eventually, At the name of Jesus Every knee shall bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;And that Every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord (Phil.2:9-11). I can see that your intelligent, I just hope that you don`t assume that I`m saying anything, because most do (I`m not saying you are though). Just for clarification purposes, I never said that there wasn`t a Hell, or a Lake of Fire, or that sinners were not going to be in them. Likewise, I never asserted that Jesus Christ wasn`t the only way to the Father (14:6), what I am saying though, is that All have sinned come short of God`s glory (Rom.3:23) and we that we are saved by grace through faith; and that not of yourselves: It is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast (Eph.2:8,9), because if we couldn`t come to Jesus, unless God the Father was drawing us (John.6:44), then we shouldn`t be bragging anyway, because if we could`ve come to Jesus without the Father draw, then we would have
free-will, and Jesus would also be a liar, but we know that neither of these statements are true, because no one can resist the Will of God (Rom.9:19).
I`m not trying to preach to you, I`m just expressing what I believe God has revealed to me. If I`m wrong, then I pray that God open my eyes to the truth, for only he can open the eyes of the blind (Deut.29:4), and If I`m right, then All the glory goes to God. With that said, allow me to speak openly about the scriptures..............................If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of the that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For asin Adam All die, even so in Christ shall All be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ`s at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he (Jesus) must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he (God the Father) hath put all things under his feet. But when he saight, All things are put under him (Jesus), it is manifest that he (God the Father) is excepted, which did put al things under him. And when All things shall be subdued unto him (Jesus), then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him (God the Father), that God may be All in All (1Cor.15:19-28). You see, the word "restitution" literally means, by definition, to return to the rightful owner All that was taken away, lost, or surrendered, and Jesus came to seek and to save that which was lost (Luke.19:10), and He can`t fail, for God is Love (1 John.4:8), it`s not an attribute (Love) of God, it`s what he is, and Love (Charity) never fails (1Cor.13:8), it`s impossible, because He`s All-Powerful. That`s also why he can`t lie, because how can you lie when everything you say is becomes the truth, even if God tried to spread a rumor, as soon as he spoke it, as a matter of fact, as soon as he thought it, it would become truth! He said let there be light, and boom!, there it was. So since God is All-Powerful, then whatever he wants to happen will happen, which means that if God want`s something to happen, then it`s impossible for anyone to stop it, likewise if He doesn`t want something to happen it`s impossible for anyone to accomplish it, because He`s All-Powerful. So if God isn`t willing that anyone perish (2 Pet.3:9)...........how can it happen?Listen, God can`t fail, and to fail literally means to "miss the mark", which translated from the Greek is defined by one word, "Sin". We know that there is no sin in God, because God can`t fail, so, with that being said, If Jesus said "If I be lifted up from the earth (which he has been) I`ll draw all men unto me" (John.12:32), and all men haven`t been drawn to him, in fact I`ll go further, All HAVEN`T heard of Christ, plenty have passed on without hearing of Him. He told the disciples to "Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature" (Mark.16:15), and while it`s obvious that he said that, it`s also abundantly clear that knowledge was still limited at the time, because the Apostles didn`t have access to automobiles, planes, telephones, pagers, the internet, etc. The printing press, which was invented by Johann Gutenberg, wasn`t available, until the year 1450. So, if God (who is All-Loving) can`t fail, and he made that statement in John.12:32, and MOST have passed on without even hearing of Christ, then that Must mean that he will draw All, eventually, every man in his own order (1Cor.15.23). I know that I`ve written a lot, but trust me, there`s much, much more. Please tell me what you think...........and if this is not making any sense, please tell what you think of this passage of scripture: For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manisfestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope; Because the creature itself also shall be delievered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it (Rom.8:19-25). Just a side note, when it says "the whole creation" in ver.8 and when it says "the creature" in verses.19, 20, 21, these are literally translated as the words "every creature" as is illustrated in Mark.16:15 and Col.1:23. The words "to wit" in ver.23 simply means "in other words", and just so there`s no confusion, you can substitute the word "liberty" in ver.21 for the word "freedom" (they`re synonymous terms). Anyway, please write back, I`d love to hear what you think, until then, Peace!

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There's a problem here. In the typical Christian conceptualization of God, His foreknowledge is exhaustive and infallible. If that is the case, then your statement "He ... knew what might happen" is actually false. With infallible foreknowledge, He must've known what would necessarily follow his decision to create humans. In fact, its meaningless to speak of free will at all if God's knowledge is thus. All events are necessarily consistent with God's foreknowledge at the instant of creation and God is therefore culpable for all outcomes.

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I used to argue for this, but now I'm not so sure. How does foreknowledge contradict free will? In other words, how does someone knowing what I am going to do negate the fact that I had free will to do otherwise? Let's say I can peer into my past and watch it like a video. I know exactly what I am going to do in the relative future of the event I am watching, but does that mean that I didn't have free will to do otherwise? Is there a logical contradiction between foreknowledge and free will? I've read Pike's piece, "Divine Foreknowledge and Free Will are Incompatible", in which he attempts to do just this. Then I read Plantinga's "Divine Foreknowledge and Free Will are Compatible" in which he seems to dismantle Pike's piece. Out of curiousity, have you read any interesting pieces on this subject?I'm very hesitant to debate either side. On Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, I'd agree with you. On Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday, I'd disagree. And on Sunday I don't give a damn.I do agree, though, that the free will defense as a solution to the problem of evil has contradictory (or atleast unconventional) implications about the Nature of Heaven.

I agree with you JustinCy.
Lets suppose that I have a time machine.
The very fact that I know the future of a mechanical system doesnt mean that I forced the system to do that.I just traveled on time and saw as a espectator.I had not even made any mathematical calculations about the system.I know the future only as a time traveling espectator.Then the foreknowledge of God dont eliminate free will.
Time is a physical constraint.Our heart(soul) lives on eternity(a dimension outside of time) and therefore the decisions are taken in it
(Ecc 3:11).

Hi Justin,It isn't just "foreknowledge" that contradicts freewill...it is the foreknowledge of an omniscient creator of all life. Just knowing that something is going to happen doesn't mean much if you have no control over that something. But what if you DO have control?If an omniscient creator causes an entity to be born, or allows an entity to be born, knowing that this person will grown up to be an atheist, or a Christian, or an ax murderer, that person had no choice. This omniscient creator stacked the deck by allowing an event that was knowingly going to cause an effect.Seems like this creator god creates people for the sole purpose of damning them to hell.Basically you can't have it both ways, omniscience and freewill are mutually exclusive.

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Asgara
"An unexamined life is not worth living" Socrates via Plato

First of, I want to say from the beggining that we have free will. We exercise this gift every day(for example-i decide what i will have for breakfast,what clothe am i going to wear today.etc).I do not agree with your point that states that evil lies in the free will of humans. because clearly the Bible states that evil lies in man"s nature. What is our nature? I define this term in this situation as the first thing that comes to mind wen we have to make a desicion. For example, when surprised doing something naughty the first thing that comes to mind is to lie. But we have the gift to analyze each situation and in the end the free will to choose the "evil" answer or the correct one. Our nature definetly does influence on our desicion making but it doest force us to meke such desicion. We have the free will to decide if we lie or tell the truth. Get my point.

Even the libertarians amongst us have to admit that claiming free will through introspection is not evidence of free will, let alone it's sole proof. I think that naturally we believe we have free will. We hold on to it childishly, similar to Hume's description of why we try to find order in the world. Belief and acceptance are two seperate things though, and what I believe is that I'm mislead in inately thinking I have free will.

Hi, Justin. Asgara already supplied a sufficient response to your post, but I thought I'd phrase one for you in my own words in order to give you a few perspectives... The important qualification that is often overlooked is the supposed infallibility of God's foreknowledge. Since it is supposed to be impossible in principle for God to have erroneous knowledge, all of the future events which he knows thus must be precisely determined in order to be known. It is a contradiction to say that God infallibly knows the exact future state of any propogating system, and that future state is still undetermined. In other words, if the state were truly undetermined, then God could not know infallibly and precisely what it is. Knowing that future state precisely and infallibly requires determining exactly what it is to be known. Well, strictly speaking, the uncertainty principle prohibits this from being true because it is impossible in principle to know completely and precisely any single state of the universe. You may be able to predict the future state of your body with a high degree of accuracy, but you cannot predict it with infallible accuracy. Yes. That is, between infallible foreknowledge and free will.1.) I have free will with respect to action A at time T if and only if there exist possible worlds A₁, A₂, A₃, ... A_n in the future (at time (T + 1)) of action A.2.) Divine (infallible) foreknowledge requires that all worlds contrary to that which is divinely known are impossible (because those worlds represent the possibility for God to be wrong, which, according to the definition of infallibility, is impossible, hence those worlds do not exist).3.) Suppose that at time (T - 1), God infallibly knows that world A_G exists at (T + 1).4.) According to (2), all other worlds besides A_G are impossible, and therefore do not exist.5.) Therefore I do not have free will with respect to action A. Lots of odds and ends that I've found on the net. Nothing comes to mind that's worth singling out. I agree. If evil necessarily follows from free will, then free will can't exist in Heaven where there is supposed to be no evil....but that's a different thread altogether...

And that it only existed after the fall of mankind. Without some idea of right/wrong or good/evil I would suggest that Adam and Eve didn't have free-will as we think of it nowadays (choices made for good vs. evil).

[qs=Tagless] "Without some idea of right/wrong or good/evil I would suggest that Adam and Eve didn't have free-will as we think of it nowadays (choices made for good vs. evil)."[qs] Basically, Adam and Eves first command from God was:Gen 2:16-17
16 And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die." (from New International Version)
Notice two trees mentioned. 1)Tree of Life. 2)Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. While we can deduce that Tree of Life=SOURCE:GOD
since God=life, The other tree is a bit more complex. The other tree could be called the Tree of Life/Death. Death only exists when a person cuts off from SOURCE:Life or SOURCE:God.
How did Adam and Eve sin? By choosing to do what God said not to do.
God knew that this would happen, did He not? Some may argue that God cannot know a future choice that has not been freely chosen, but If God exists in the past, present, and future all at once, God surely would have access to such information. As a side note on this, I am still convinced that the two scrips in Revelation somehow explain this reality a bit better. To wit:Rev 1:8
8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty." ==Past, present, and future.
Contrasted with our nemesis "Da Beast" who is described as follows:
Rev 17:8
8 The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and will come up out of the Abyss and go to his destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not, and yet will come. ==existed in the past...does not exist....will exist for those who are not written in book of life. Now...does Book of Life = Tree of Life? In other words, the options that humans have are as follows:
1) Acknowledge and relate to SOURCE:God/life and be happy,blessed, and alive
2) Beast will be your Daddy if you are not written in Book of Life.
The way not to be written in book of life must be because you refused to relate to God. Is this mean of Him to give us no option? Some suggest that either we listen to our Source or go to hell! What a mean source! Why is this mean? If you are on a mountain and I tell you to obey gravity and stay away from the edge and you then declare that I have given you only one choice, am I being mean?

My point still stands. IF, that tree gave them the knowledge of good/evil=right/wrong=bad choice/good choice, etc. then the following point is:1) Adam and Eve did not fully understand that this choice (which I do not think is equivalent to "what color socks should I put on today?!", but I've heard used) was pivotol for all of their descendents.Then I think it logically follows?:
a-We as adults have knowledge of "good and evil" that you, Phatboy, might say was passed down to us through Original Sin
b-Therefore, the knowledge we have is not the same knowledge Adam and Eve had prior to the Fall.
c-That being the case they could not have had Free Choice/Free Will as we do today, as we use it today, to decide between the option God gave them between "good and evil". Imo, in order to truly claim someone has Free Will that person must be fully capable of understanding the ramifications of their actions. For example, we have made the exception in our society for people with limited mental capabilities who have committed murder.
d-Therefore, I would conclude that the knowledge and understanding Adam and Eve had about the world and choices probably comes closest to children.Therefore, I hold that the Free Will as we are told everyone has, did not exist for Adam and Eve. I might even go so far as to say he offered them the first temptation.....knowledge as Gods, like himself. Anyway, this is long and I really got get to work. Have a great day.

Assuming of course that there was a FALL, but that's what Genesis indicates. However, there is a theory that God & Adam were planning to finish the Creation after getting rid of Lilith.

Yes... Tagless,I agree with you.
As far as Lilith goes, however, I am no expert in the Kabbala so I defer.[This message has been edited by Phatboy, 01-16-2004]

My logic still holds because the core is that they had to eat from the tree before gaining the "insight" (my quotes) of good and evil and is not contingent on the Fall.