Does Islam need a Reformation?

Kind of reminds me of people who understand the Bible to be literally true. You can't argue with them either.

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People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

I think that's what Jazzns has been trying to tell you about the Quran.

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People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

Don't confuse "tangible" with "objective".Any "holy book" can be interpreted in a myriad ways. The interpretations are certainly subjective. It is painfully obvious that people can misunderstand scripture. EvC Forums wouldn't exist if creationists didn't misunderstand scripture.That is because the interpretation of scripture is subjective.Quite frankly, I think it is ludicrous for Westerners who can't read the Bible objectively to tell Muslims that they are not reading the Quran objectively.

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People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

And it has been pointed out to you: it is a FACT that the Bible IS interpreted in a CERTAIN WAY to kill people.It is an objective fact that there is no difference between the Bible and the Quran in terms of misinterpretation.

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People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

You mispelled "misinterpreted". M-I-S-i-n-t-e-r-p-r-e-t-e-d.You also conveniently ignore the many cases in which misinterpretation of the Bbile has produced the same results.Do I hear an echo in here? Have you been told all this before?(P.S. Who said I was not a Muslim?)

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People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

Disagree. But that's another topic. Okay, you twisted my arm:A "professing" Christian talks about his/her beliefs. A "practising" Christian does what Christ would have done. His/her "beliefs" are invisible. Since you were wrong about the first part, mind if I don't take your word on the second? (By the way, don't you sound a lot like the "no true Muslim" fallacy?

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People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

Too subtle for you, eh? From Wikipedia, the "no true Scotsman" fallacy:

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Argument: "No Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge."
Reply: "But my uncle Angus likes sugar with his porridge."
Rebuttal: "Ah yes, but no true Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge."

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Your claims that "no true Christian would blah blah blah...." and "no true Muslim would blah blah blah...." appear to be the same reasoning.My point (in case I was too subtle about that too) was:A person who loudly proclaims that he is a Christian, but who hates Muslims, gays, etc. may not be a "true" Christian at all. On the other hand, a person who loves all of his/her neighbours, including Muslims, gays, etc. may be a "true" Christian without ever professing a belief.Similarly, those who loudly proclaim that they are Muslims - but who kill in Allah's name - may not be "true" Muslims at all. Whereas a person who follows the teachings of the Quran may be a "true" Muslim without ever professing a belief.Since the profession of a belief and the practise of a religion are so different, your whole argument is irrelevant.You're only railing at those who profess Islam, not those who practise it. No reformation of Islam is going to eliminate the ones who misuse it.

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People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

Mmm...huh?Non sequitur is Latin for "does not follow" - i.e. the statement is illogical."So true as to be a non sequitur" would be an oxymoron.I agree that your position is illogical, but is that what you meant to say? No. I'm saying that the points I raise are the primary aspects - e.g. that it is more important to behave like a Christian than to say you're a Christian. The points you raise - a professed "belief" in Christ or Muhammed - are secondary. As it is in the Bible. But "love thy neighbour as thyself" is a practise, not a grey area.As I said, no reformation will eliminate those who choose to blacken the grey areas. "Does Islam need a Reformation?" is a useless question.This message has been edited by Ringo316, 2005-07-31 06:25 PM

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People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

Actually, no. "Messianic" refers to the belief in a "messiah", or "annointed one" - i.e. one who is sent with a specific mission.Jews see their messiah as a military leader sent to deliver them from the oppression of Gentile rule. Christians see their messiah as a spiritual leader, sent to deliver them from the oppression of sin.Neither has anything to do with "the world must accept their faith".Please try to get your facts straight.

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People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

Don't confuse assumptions with conclusions.I concluded that you were wrong about the word "messiah" because you used it incorrectly.Similarly, a few posts back, I concluded that you don't know what the "no true Scotsman" fallacy is because you didn't get my "no true Muslim" joke. Similarly, a few posts back, I concluded that you don't know what a non sequitur is because you used the term incorrectly. Similarly, in another thread, I concluded that you didn't know anything about Saskatchewan politics because you didn't know anything about the CCF.What does this have to do with the topic?You are showing a pattern of misunderstanding and misusing terminology. That leads me to conclude that your "alternative" interpretations of Islam are probably based on misunderstanding and misuse of terminology. Hint: a stronger argument would be to actually show that it is true. Many words are just used incorrectly, too.If you are going to use non-standard "meanings", or obscure "meanings" or just plain, out-there, woo-woo "meanings" for words, you have to be very,very careful to tell us. Otherwise, we might conclude that you don't know what you're talking about.

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People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

It's for your own benefit that you should back up what you say, not mine.As of right now, my definition of "messianic" is on record in this thread and yours is not. Which one do you think will carry more weight with the readers? Here's some advice for free: Don't get into a battle of wits unless you're properly equiped.Instead of wasting bandwidth on lame excuses, why don't you actually make an argument?(By the way, that's twice now that you've accused me of being "impolite". Pardon me, but it isn't easy to do all that bowing and scraping while I'm pointing out your lack of understanding of simple logic and terminology. )

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People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

I'm really beginning to think I got of at the wrong floor.What is "they are oxymorons" supposed to mean? Referring to the Jews? Are you using a non-standard definition of "oxymoron" too?(Just a question. Bow. Scrape.)

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People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

Maybe that's your whole problem here: you're speaking a language that nobody but you understands.There are people out there reading this, you know. And all they have to go on is what you say. They can't read your mind to understand what you mean.How about using terminology the same way the rest of us use it? And if you must use an obscure alternate definition, for God's sake, tell us what it is.

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People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

Add another vote for "silly".Or does "silly" mean something completely different in SteveSpeak?My intelligence, or lack thereof, is on record in my posts here.So is yours.

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People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

As I said, your posts speak for themselves.

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Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

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Pro 10:8 The wise in heart will receive commandments: but a prating fool shall fall.

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Pro 10:18 He that hideth hatred with lying lips, and he that uttereth a slander, is a fool.

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Pro 12:15 The way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that hearkeneth unto counsel is wise.

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Pro 12:16 A fool's wrath is presently known: but a prudent man covereth shame.

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Pro 13:16 Every prudent man dealeth with knowledge: but a fool layeth open his folly.

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Okay, I won't quote the entire book of Proverbs.

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2Co 11:19 For ye suffer fools gladly, seeing ye yourselves are wise.

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Let's see if I get suspended for quoting the Bible. This message has been edited by Ringo316, 2005-08-02 12:45 PM

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People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.