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Author Topic:   Does Islam need a Reformation?
Andya Primanda
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 300 (226972)
07-28-2005 8:33 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by CanadianSteve
07-27-2005 5:17 PM


Steve,
I'll only discuss with you and I'll ignore Faith because she's incapable of rational discussion.
quote:
Andya, I thonk you'd have a hard time pointing to anything i've said that reflected an irrational or angry or hostile tone. It appears that simply by suggesting that there may be an issue, that constitutes untoward behaviour.
Well I haven't been impressed by your replies at the London bomb thread and the other Islam reformation thread. But I'll overlook that for now.
quote:
I would argue that islamism is only the name of the latest itineration of the movement. There is a reason why Mohammed conquered huge swaths of land, most of it to that point Christian, and some of it Jewish. There is a reason why Islam eventually conquered Spain, and made it to the gates of Vienna in the 1600's. In our present time, Islamists are warring against Hindus in India, against Bhuddists in Thailand and Cambodia, against Christians and Animists in Africa and the Phillipines, and against Muslims in iraq and elsewhere too. This is not about a response to the west.
From what I know about the history of Islam, during the lifetime of Muhammad, expansion was limited to Arabia and parts of the Middle East[up to Syria & Iraq by his death]. I can admit that some is motivated by a lust of conquest. Islam united warlike Arab tribes. Now that they can't fight each other anymore, the only way to channel their aggression is outside. And their immediate neighbours happen to be the Christian Eastern Roman Empire.
The lust to conquest is not exclusive to Arabs. It also appeared among Mongols [see Genghis Khan and his descendants], Romans, exploration-age Europeans. The Qur'an just happen not to curb it. Besides, if you compare it to Christianity, Christianity also borrows the power of conquerors [its association with the Roman Empire helped it spread across the old world]. But since you're Jewish [IIRC] I'm sure that doesn't concern you.
The Qur'an does not say anything about world domination though. It's just this lust for conquest looked for a religious backing from time to time.
I'll leave aside the Israel issue for this moment. I know we see it differently, but the fact is its existence flamed a common cause among modern-day Islamists.
About comparing al-Qaeda with the Wahabbis, the Iran Revolution, and the Ikhwan al-Muslimin, do understand that all three movements are more concerned with local issues [Saudi, Iran, Egypt]. Al-Qaeda & co. is international-oriented and they have no negotiable goals [unlike, say, the Ikhwan or Hizbullah, who has been incorporated into politics in Egypt and Syria].
quote:
I have heard that said, and hope it to be true. But millions upon millions of Muslims disagree with that interpretaion. Indeed, the global islamist movement completely disagrees. They argue that the House of Islam / House of War notion means that any who do not accept Islam have declared war upon it. Therefore, it is defensive for Muslims to attack non Muslims who refuse to accept the faith. Moreover, most the Sword Verses makes no reference to the argument, drowned out by all the other passages that state otherwise.
You're exaggerating the millions upon millions there. If only it's like that, we should see all Muslims will behave like the Islamists. But we don't. The majority of Muslims are peace-loving moderates.
About the Sword verses, do read Jazzns' exposition. It is true that taken out of context they can be used to justify violence but that's selective quoting.
quote:
My view is this: Islam has much that is wonderful, peaceful, spiritual. But the Sword Verses, much of Sharia Law, and much of the Hadith, are calls to war and oppression of Muslims and non Muslims both. And thus, for most of its history, right up to and including today, the faith has been at war with itself. There are those like you, good people, peaceful people, who see it one way. And then there are the Islamists who see it, with solid theological reasoning and historical reference, otherwise. How do we empower those like you, and not only weaken the Islamists now, but into the future? Bear in mind that many good Muslims raise children who are drawn to Islamism. Indeed, the british born London bombers apparently came from good homes. One, at least, was a truly good person, well-liked, great with kids, generous, and, seemingly, totally assimilated in liberal demcoracy. How could such a person have gone so wrong? How scary that such a person could have gone so wrong. How do we prevent that from happening?
FYI, I won't say that Islamist terrorists have 'solid theological reasoning'. How can they be, if they violate the 'no killing innocents' rule? But then again, Islam does not have a central authority so nobody can enforce their interpretation onto the whole body of Muslims [unlike Catholics].
The Islamists, and not just them, many Muslims are outraged by what they see as injustice and exploitation by the US. In recent years, the invasion of Afghanistan [which failed to eradicate Osama] and the illegal invasion of Iraq has put more fuel to the fire. A friend of mine in an informal discussion that GW Bush can be said as Osama's main recruiting lieutenant: GWB's policies has made more people support the terrorists' cause. The 'war on terror' could've been done in a better way. Indonesia managed to handle its own band of al-Qaeda supporters and violent Islamists efficiently: almost all living plotters of the Bali bomb, and many of those involved in latter cases have been captured and jailed. Why didn't the US, say, send teams of intelligence agents and special troops to infiltrate, say, Afghanistan or Pakistan and capture OBL, Mullah Omar, al-Zawahiri, etc. I'm sure the US authorities is capable of doing that operation. But instead of doing that, Bush brought his whole armed forces and destroyed two countries and millions of innocent citizens on the way. And still he failed to catch the culprits.
quote:
I know that the faith says that the Koran is inerrant and perfect, and cannot be altered at all. My suggestion is for there to be a koranic edit. That is much less intrusive than a reformation, which will by definitoon be an impossibility to many, if not most, Muslims. The edit would assume that the Arabic language of Mohammed's time is different than today, and thus easily misunderstood. To ensure that there is no way, absolutely no way, for the Koran to be read as anything but peaceful, for Jihad to mean nothing but spiritual improvement, it would be argued that the koran needs to be updated to today's vernacular, and then so edited. this would meet one prominent Muslim's call for not a reformation, but "Islamic Renaissance."
Unfortunately, I can't see that this proposal will work. Every Muslim knows agrees that there is only one accepted Arabic text of the Qur'an, and it has never been altered since it was revealed to the Messenger. The closest you can get is to teach peaceful interpretations of the Qur'an, and this has been happening all the way, as evidenced by the majority of Muslims who are peaceful.
Yes, we need a reformation. I know that sometimes Muslim religious teachers taught hate and bigotry. These are one part of the problem, which Muslims must address. The other part is on the Westerners' hands, to try to understand issues that concern Muslims. European nations IMO have a better handle on the Muslim issue, but I still don't see wise moves by the US. The need for reformation and change is Westerners' too.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by CanadianSteve, posted 07-27-2005 5:17 PM CanadianSteve has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by CanadianSteve, posted 07-28-2005 9:41 AM Andya Primanda has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 17 of 300 (226975)
07-28-2005 8:37 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Faith
07-28-2005 2:01 AM


Re: Islam's beginnings
Well, it's pretty hard to take a text serious that makes such major mistakes. If the author is a scholar then he is simply a liar.
Christianity made its conquest by peaceful missionaries and the power of persuasion, and carried with it the blessings of home, freedom and civilization.
What complete nonsense. Christianity made its conquests by the sword, the rack, the stake, the pillory, deseased blankets, fear and raw power.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Faith, posted 07-28-2005 2:01 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Andya Primanda, posted 07-28-2005 8:42 AM jar has replied
 Message 20 by Faith, posted 07-28-2005 8:54 AM jar has replied

Andya Primanda
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 300 (226977)
07-28-2005 8:42 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by jar
07-28-2005 8:37 AM


Re: Islam's beginnings
Hence my refusal to discuss with her. That last sentence, claiming the last chapter of the Qur'an as an order to annihilate non-Muslims, is just false. The last chapter, an-Nas, 'the Man', is a prayer for protection!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by jar, posted 07-28-2005 8:37 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by jar, posted 07-28-2005 8:46 AM Andya Primanda has not replied
 Message 22 by Faith, posted 07-28-2005 9:08 AM Andya Primanda has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 19 of 300 (226980)
07-28-2005 8:46 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Andya Primanda
07-28-2005 8:42 AM


Re: Islam's beginnings
Absolutely correct. But as a Christian, I don't believe I can in honesty refuse to try to correct her. I think it is very important to correct false doctrine among people who call themselves Christians, who are only confusing everybody.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Andya Primanda, posted 07-28-2005 8:42 AM Andya Primanda has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 20 of 300 (226983)
07-28-2005 8:54 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by jar
07-28-2005 8:37 AM


Re: Islam's beginnings
Well, it's pretty hard to take a text serious that makes such major mistakes. If the author is a scholar then he is simply a liar.
Philip Schaff's credentials and his long list of references are impeccable and you should be ashamed to say such a thing. If we are required to produce evidence, opponents should be required to recognize the evidence and refute it with equally qualified evidence.
Christianity made its conquest by peaceful missionaries and the power of persuasion, and carried with it the blessings of home, freedom and civilization.
What complete nonsense. Christianity made its conquests by the sword, the rack, the stake, the pillory, deseased blankets, fear and raw power.
The whole work by Schaff does not slight such incidents in Christian history. Read the chapter on the Crusades -- but staggeringly brutal as it was, this had nothing to do with spreading the gospel, as Mohammed's killings did -- they were wars of conquest and retaliation.
What Schaff says is true about how Christianity was SPREAD to others. Read his chapter about how Europe was Christianized. It took centuries of missionary work to the European barbarian tribes and was barely completed just before the Crusades. {EDIT: You are not making a distinction between the wars of Christendom and the evangelism of the gospel for conversion. The Inquisition was hardly about converting anyone, and there was ONE incident of diseased blankets PURPOSELY given to the Indians, and it was NOT done in the name of Christianity.
You are the ignorant one, Jar, and given to making bald assertions without evidence too.
This message has been edited by Faith, 07-28-2005 08:56 AM
This message has been edited by Faith, 07-28-2005 08:58 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by jar, posted 07-28-2005 8:37 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by jar, posted 07-28-2005 9:07 AM Faith has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 21 of 300 (226988)
07-28-2005 9:07 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Faith
07-28-2005 8:54 AM


Re: Islam's beginnings
Sorry Faith but Hawaii was stolen by Missionaries for personal gain. Indian Children were rounded up and forced into Missionary schools, forced to abandon their culture, heritage and even their language. The South American Codexes were burned by Priests because they were pagan. The Conquests of Constantine were in the name of the Christian God. The Crusades were solely rape and pillage sold in the name of the Christian God. Christianity became the state religion throughout Europe through conquest and pogroms against Jews and other non-believers were constant and continuous. Jewish Ghettos were common throughout Europe until WWII.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Faith, posted 07-28-2005 8:54 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Faith, posted 07-28-2005 9:12 AM jar has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 22 of 300 (226989)
07-28-2005 9:08 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Andya Primanda
07-28-2005 8:42 AM


Re: Islam's beginnings
You are to dispute a contention with evidence, not namecalling. Calling me irrational is a violation of the Forum Guidelines. I produced the exhaustively researched work of a renowned scholar for my evidence and you and Jar have answered with nothing but insults and assertions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Andya Primanda, posted 07-28-2005 8:42 AM Andya Primanda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Andya Primanda, posted 07-28-2005 9:22 AM Faith has replied

Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 23 of 300 (226990)
07-28-2005 9:09 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by CanadianSteve
07-28-2005 1:38 AM


Re: Context of "War" Verses.
Please address the issue of the context as it concerns conversion by the sword.
I realize that it does say that infidels must pay a tax but that is very different from 'convert or die'. You get no brownie points for showing that the Koran teaches a dislike of other religions. Dislike and special treatement are worlds different from what you originally suggested.
You are required to address rebuttals. If you expect to be taken seriously you must debate honestly. Show me, using the text of the Koran, how my interpretation that those verses DO NOT mandate conversion by the sword is wrong given the full context in which they are written. You need to address my specific points.
Too many times we forget that this is a moderated debate board. I will not be forgetting that during this discussion.

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by CanadianSteve, posted 07-28-2005 1:38 AM CanadianSteve has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by CanadianSteve, posted 07-28-2005 9:48 AM Jazzns has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 24 of 300 (226991)
07-28-2005 9:12 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by jar
07-28-2005 9:07 AM


Re: Islam's beginnings
Christianity became the religion of Europe almost exclusively through the work of missionaries.
HISTORY OF THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH*
{Late edit: Error. Meant to link THIS chapter, though the above is good too, and this one has problems in the beginning, though I've reported the bug to the site so it may change soon:
HISTORY OF THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH*
You do not know your history. And the other incidents you name were violations of the teachings of Christ, whereas Mohammed himself set the theme for conversion to Islam by force.
This message has been edited by Faith, 07-29-2005 06:29 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by jar, posted 07-28-2005 9:07 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by jar, posted 07-28-2005 9:21 AM Faith has replied
 Message 33 by nator, posted 07-28-2005 9:46 AM Faith has replied

Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 25 of 300 (226993)
07-28-2005 9:19 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by CanadianSteve
07-28-2005 1:05 AM


Re: Context of "War" Verses.
Once again all of you experts on the term 'jihad' are also critics of Islam (yes including the Moslem woman who write that book, you will find many real Christians on this board criticial of Christianity as well).
Have you ever found a real definition of 'jihad' from an Arabic scholar? A Moslem scholar? Someone who is actually part of the culture that uses that term?
Take an analogy. What if I went around saying the the word 'aloha' means hello in Hawaiian? I wouldn't be wrong but I would also not be entirely correct. No if you used my 'expert' analysis of the word 'aloha' in a debate you would be using an invalid source because in actuality the word 'aloha' means many things from hello, goodbye, and various degrees of love depending on the context. Now who would be a better source, me or an actual Polynesian historian or even a native Hawaiian?
How about we find out what 'jihad' means from the Arabs? Why are you so attached to sites with an anti-arab or extreme conservative bias (I particularly loved the image of the woman on the frontpagemag site that had a shirt which said "I neutered my pet and now they are liberal"). Quality sources there CS. Quality sources.

Organizations worth supporting:
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by CanadianSteve, posted 07-28-2005 1:05 AM CanadianSteve has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by CanadianSteve, posted 07-28-2005 9:50 AM Jazzns has replied
 Message 79 by Faith, posted 07-29-2005 6:49 AM Jazzns has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 26 of 300 (226994)
07-28-2005 9:21 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Faith
07-28-2005 9:12 AM


Re: Islam's beginnings
I'm sorry but once again, that's simply not correct. Rulers ruled by the Divine Right. Christianity. They took the first pass with the pretty bride because they had Divine Right. You were a Christian (often one of only a particular cult) or you were enemy. Protestant killed Catholic, Catholic killed Protestant, both killed the Jew.
I'm sorry but Schaff seems like just another Christian Bigot.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Faith, posted 07-28-2005 9:12 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Faith, posted 07-28-2005 9:38 AM jar has replied

Andya Primanda
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 300 (226995)
07-28-2005 9:22 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Faith
07-28-2005 9:08 AM


Re: Islam's beginnings
The 'renowned scholar' couldn't even get the facts straight! [That 'last chapter' quote did it for me]. Hence I ignore you. I know how you behave at discussions. At least Steve showed a willingness to discuss things in good faith [pun intended].

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Faith, posted 07-28-2005 9:08 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Faith, posted 07-28-2005 9:33 AM Andya Primanda has replied
 Message 58 by Chiroptera, posted 07-28-2005 10:36 AM Andya Primanda has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 28 of 300 (226997)
07-28-2005 9:31 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by CanadianSteve
07-26-2005 8:20 PM


quote:
Many Muslims and non Muslims see that the Islamic world has been at theological war with itself almost since the faith's advent, one that carries over to this very day.
The exact same thing can be said of Christianity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by CanadianSteve, posted 07-26-2005 8:20 PM CanadianSteve has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by CanadianSteve, posted 07-28-2005 9:56 AM nator has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 29 of 300 (227001)
07-28-2005 9:33 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Andya Primanda
07-28-2005 9:22 AM


Re: Islam's beginnings
The 'renowned scholar' couldn't even get the facts straight! [That 'last chapter' quote did it for me].
Your job is to PROVE it, not assert it, according to the rules of EvC.
Hence I ignore you. I know how you behave at discussions. At least Steve showed a willingness to discuss things in good faith [pun intended].
I don't care if you ignore me, I'll be just as happy to ignore you. But your entire argument so far is nothing but assertion and personal slur and the above is a perfect Ad Hominem.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Andya Primanda, posted 07-28-2005 9:22 AM Andya Primanda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Andya Primanda, posted 07-28-2005 9:41 AM Faith has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 30 of 300 (227004)
07-28-2005 9:38 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by jar
07-28-2005 9:21 AM


Re: Islam's beginnings
Your opinion is irrelevant. You are arguing from opinion and assertion and proving nothing. How rulers ruled is off topic. The topic is how people were converted to the faith. I gave you a link to the information that Europe was converted by missionaries over a period of many centuries. You keep referring to military actions and other time periods and other contexts altogether, that have nothing to do with the methods of conversion. And above all you do nothing but opinionate, you give no proof even of your off topic points. I gave a scholar's work full of citations.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by jar, posted 07-28-2005 9:21 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by jar, posted 07-28-2005 9:56 AM Faith has replied

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