Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
5 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,807 Year: 3,064/9,624 Month: 909/1,588 Week: 92/223 Day: 3/17 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Does the Book of Mormon contradict the Bible?
ochaye
Member (Idle past 5238 days)
Posts: 307
Joined: 03-08-2009


Message 271 of 352 (535488)
11-16-2009 9:38 AM
Reply to: Message 270 by Blue Jay
11-16-2009 9:32 AM


Re: What must I do ? BELIEVE
quote:
God very clearly states that a man's salvation is contingent on something that that man does.
What does man do to get God's salvation?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 270 by Blue Jay, posted 11-16-2009 9:32 AM Blue Jay has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 272 of 352 (535493)
11-16-2009 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 270 by Blue Jay
11-16-2009 9:32 AM


Re: What must I do ? BELIEVE
Bluejay writes:
Yes, God very clearly states that a man's salvation is contingent on something that that man does. Our disagreement is about what a man has to do to satisfy that contingency, and nothing more.
Interjecting here.
You said in response to my query that effectively (nigh on) all men will be saved (in the sense of going to heaven) but that heaven is a case of degrees of bliss, the degree depending on the work a man does.
This primary salvation isn't contingent on a mans work I take it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 270 by Blue Jay, posted 11-16-2009 9:32 AM Blue Jay has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 274 by ochaye, posted 11-16-2009 10:53 AM iano has not replied

  
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2697 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 273 of 352 (535494)
11-16-2009 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 268 by iano
11-16-2009 6:21 AM


Re: What must I do ? Impossible!
Hi, Iano.
iano writes:
Are we agreed that the man is looking to see how he can achieve eternal life for himself by what he does? And that the means whereby he is examined has to do with 'adherance to God's law' - initially against the classic, Mosaic sense of the law?
I don't think so. The emphasis of this story is clearly on worldly possessions, rather than on adherance to law. Nor do I particularly accept that there is a clear reference to any law given here.
I think these are things that you have read into the text based on external context to which the intended audience, the rich young ruler, was not privy.
-----
Your recounting of the story and the lesson it was meant to teach cast Jesus in the light of a humble, perfect teacher. As everyone knows, a teacher's effectiveness is dependent on context: it can only be gauged by how well the lesson is tailored to the student.
So, what would the rich young ruler take from what Jesus said?
The only thing the rich young ruler heard was "Keep the commandments, and you will have eternal life. Sell your possessions, and follow me, and you will have treasure in heaven."
What do you think this meant to the rich man?
If this is the only thing you heard Jesus say (along with a few tidbits you overheard from the earlier verses about divorce and little children), what would be your reaction to this statement?
Would you conclude that man's works cannot contribute to his salvation?
Or would you conclude that you must keep the commandments, sell your possessions and travel with Jesus?
If you really believe that Jesus was a perfect teacher, then I don't see how you could conclude anything else. Any other interpretation requires you to make a number of assumptions:
  1. That the young ruler knew all about the law to which Jesus's "follow me" was a peripheral reference, and that "follow me" was a reference to said law.
  2. That the young ruler sorrowed because he couldn't get himself into heaven, rather than because he would have to sacrifice all of his prized possessions.
  3. That, when Jesus says, "keep the commandments, and you will get into heaven," He doesn't mean, "keep the commandments, and you will get into heaven," and that the young ruler was privy to that double-speak.
...none of which is founded on anything but a prior belief about what Jesus must have meant when He said what He said, and all of which are carefully crafted so that the interpretation that you want comes popping out of the story.
Jesus didn't write the Bible, and His ministry certainly wasn't simply a string of object lessons for people in the future: He was teaching His doctrines to the rich young ruler, and you and I are third parties to it.
What we must accept is not that this story is one piece in a grand puzzle meant for us to figure out 2000 years later, but that it was the entire puzzle for this rich young ruler.
Otherwise, we must conclude that Jesus is a lousy teacher.
-----
iano writes:
It's a little like salvation by grace.
It's a lot like salvation by grace, because we agree with you that man is not capable of earning his way to heaven on his own. There is a certain "quota" that is expected of us before God's saving grace will be applied to us.
-----
iano writes:
Works are important in terms of heavenly reward (or degrees of glory if you like). It's just that they don't earn you eternal life/heaven in the first place.
Well, we believe that "eternal life" refers only to the highest degree of glory. Everyone below that still experiences some degree of spiritual death. The full measure of God's glory is only experienced by those in the highest degree of glory (the "Celestial Kingdom" is what we call it).
So, we tend to associate the lowest degree of glory (the "Telestial Kingdom") with Hell and damnation, although this is not doctrinally accurate.
-----
iano writes:
What is the basis for the few exceptions not gaining heaven btw?
I'm actually not entirely clear on that. It has to do with major sins, such as the anti-Christ would be guilty of. Maybe Hitler. Darwin, too, if you ask some Mormons .
Maybe Michamus could clear this up better, if he wants this thread to go into it.

-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)
Darwin loves you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 268 by iano, posted 11-16-2009 6:21 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 275 by iano, posted 11-16-2009 11:54 AM Blue Jay has replied
 Message 286 by ICANT, posted 11-16-2009 3:20 PM Blue Jay has replied

  
ochaye
Member (Idle past 5238 days)
Posts: 307
Joined: 03-08-2009


Message 274 of 352 (535496)
11-16-2009 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 272 by iano
11-16-2009 10:36 AM


Re: What must I do ? BELIEVE
quote:
This primary salvation isn't contingent on a mans work I take it?
It is so contingent. Mormons say:
'We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.'
The gospel is that there are now no laws and ordinances.
Edited by ochaye, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 272 by iano, posted 11-16-2009 10:36 AM iano has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


(2)
Message 275 of 352 (535504)
11-16-2009 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 273 by Blue Jay
11-16-2009 10:38 AM


Re: What must I do ? Impossible!
Bluejay writes:
Your recounting of the story and the lesson it was meant to teach cast Jesus in the light of a humble, perfect teacher. As everyone knows, a teacher's effectiveness is dependent on context: it can only be gauged by how well the lesson is tailored to the student.
Fair enough. I'm supposing this lesson tailored to precisely this student (although we can all learn from it - the vehicle of wealth being replaceable by many others)
-
So, what would the rich young ruler take from what Jesus said?
The only thing the rich young ruler heard was "Keep the commandments, and you will have eternal life. Sell your possessions, and follow me, and you will have treasure in heaven."
What do you think this meant to the rich man?
(Leaving aside discussion on whether Jesus implied "keep the commandments and you will have eternal life") I'd say the message the rich young ruler heard was:
"You ask me what you have to do to get eternal life? Well, you've followed the commandments: so far so good. All that's left for you to do is.."
-
If this is the only thing you heard Jesus say (along with a few tidbits you overheard from the earlier verses about divorce and little children), what would be your reaction to this statement?
Would you conclude that man's works cannot contribute to his salvation?
Not at all! I'd continue along in the belief I was raised in; that my works established my righteousness before God and that eternal life depended on them. All that Jesus tidbits, and all his specific demands of me would achieve is to raise the height of the bar I already thought I had to jump over.
-
If you really believe that Jesus was a perfect teacher, then I don't see how you could conclude anything else. Any other interpretation requires you to make a number of assumptions:
1. That the young ruler knew all about the law to which Jesus's "follow me" was a peripheral reference, and that "follow me" was a reference to said law.
It's not necessary that the young ruler knew whether or not this is the law of God. All he had to know was that it was a requirement he had to follow, delivered by someone he felt was in a position to demand it of him. He perceived it as a work he had to do - in the context of a question he himself had asked.
-
2. That the young ruler sorrowed because he couldn't get himself into heaven, rather than because he would have to sacrifice all of his prized possessions.
Hmm. I'd warrant the context supports the cause of his sadness - which happens to coincide with Jesus looking at him and telling him that it's camel-through-a-needle hard for him. Which is another way of saying, as Jesus said, that it's impossible - for a man.
-
3. That, when Jesus says, "keep the commandments, and you will get into heaven," He doesn't mean, "keep the commandments, and you will get into heaven," and that the young ruler was privy to that double-speak.
The issue is the conclusion the ruler forms in his own mind. If it's the conclusion Jesus' wants to be formed there, then Jesus' teaching mission is accomplished. Agreed?
I'm assuming that the sadness in this man arises from his recognising his being unable to give up his wealth (and not sadness because he intends to and is "missing it already"). If so, then Jesus is the one who has formed that mans conclusion about himself:
"I've asked and I've been answered. I conclude that I can't do that which is required to inherit eternal life"
I see no particular external assumptions used in the formulation of the above view (bar the basis of the rulers sadness). So we can say that our respective views rely on the basis of the mans sadness.
-
What we must accept is not that this story is one piece in a grand puzzle meant for us to figure out 2000 years later, but that it was the entire puzzle for this rich young ruler.
Otherwise, we must conclude that Jesus is a lousy teacher.
The conclusion "I'm not capable of doing what's necessary to inherit eternal life" is the only lesson this young ruler need take away with him - according to the mechanism of salvation by grace. Salvation by grace can work with a lesson thus implanted.
-
It's a lot like salvation by grace, because we agree with you that man is not capable of earning his way to heaven on his own. There is a certain "quota" that is expected of us before God's saving grace will be applied to us.
We appear to mean different things by salvation by grace also .
If the canyon between salvation or no is 1000 miles wide and God bridges 999.99 of them by his own grace and we work for the rest (our quota being 0.1 mile) then it's salvation by works through and through. In my (good) book: salvation by grace means man contributes nothing to his salvation by way of work.
(Thank God btw. I've been going around telling anyone who'll listen (and many who won't) that 'every world Religion and major cult (sorry) has works as the basis of it's salvation'. You nearly runed my credibility there )
-
So, we tend to associate the lowest degree of glory (the "Telestial Kingdom") with Hell and damnation, although this is not doctrinally accurate.
But degrees of glory sounded like nice things (even if in different degrees of niceness). Is Hell nice?
-
I'm actually not entirely clear on that. It has to do with major sins, such as the anti-Christ would be guilty of. Maybe Hitler. Darwin, too, if you ask some Mormons .
The Mother of All Mortal Sins you mean But fair enough: too much a sidetrack to worry about. Core essential is that: all will be saved in degree. All it'll be good, to greater or lesser degree.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 273 by Blue Jay, posted 11-16-2009 10:38 AM Blue Jay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 276 by ochaye, posted 11-16-2009 12:05 PM iano has replied
 Message 284 by Blue Jay, posted 11-16-2009 2:40 PM iano has replied

  
ochaye
Member (Idle past 5238 days)
Posts: 307
Joined: 03-08-2009


Message 276 of 352 (535506)
11-16-2009 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 275 by iano
11-16-2009 11:54 AM


Re: What must I do ? Impossible!
quote:
The Mother of All Mortal Sins you mean
Aha!
What's the difference between a Mormon, a Calvinist and a Catholic? I can't think of one.
No wonder you came back, blue jay!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by iano, posted 11-16-2009 11:54 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 277 by iano, posted 11-16-2009 12:08 PM ochaye has replied
 Message 303 by kbertsche, posted 11-17-2009 10:53 AM ochaye has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


(1)
Message 277 of 352 (535507)
11-16-2009 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 276 by ochaye
11-16-2009 12:05 PM


Re: What must I do ? Impossible!
What's the difference between a Mormon, a Calvinist and a Catholic? I can't think of one.
The Mormon and the RC rely on works. The Calvinist not at all. (the Calvinist relie on a celestial lotto )
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by ochaye, posted 11-16-2009 12:05 PM ochaye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 278 by ochaye, posted 11-16-2009 12:13 PM iano has replied

  
ochaye
Member (Idle past 5238 days)
Posts: 307
Joined: 03-08-2009


Message 278 of 352 (535509)
11-16-2009 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 277 by iano
11-16-2009 12:08 PM


Re: What must I do ? Impossible!
quote:
The Calvinist not at all.
They do. They just say they don't.
Good at talking, Calvinists. Reams of it!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 277 by iano, posted 11-16-2009 12:08 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 279 by iano, posted 11-16-2009 12:20 PM ochaye has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


(1)
Message 279 of 352 (535510)
11-16-2009 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 278 by ochaye
11-16-2009 12:13 PM


Re: What must I do ? Impossible!
ochaye writes:
They do. They just say they don't.
What they say is about all I've to go on. Their doctrine precludes their working for salvation: so they're either
- believing Calvinist doctrine and working for some other reason (Calvinists who call themselves Calvinists)
- don't believe Calvinist doctrine and are working for their salvation (not-Calvinists calling themselves Calvinist)
Like, how can you be a Calvinist and not believe Calvinism?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by ochaye, posted 11-16-2009 12:13 PM ochaye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 280 by ochaye, posted 11-16-2009 12:38 PM iano has replied

  
ochaye
Member (Idle past 5238 days)
Posts: 307
Joined: 03-08-2009


Message 280 of 352 (535512)
11-16-2009 12:38 PM
Reply to: Message 279 by iano
11-16-2009 12:20 PM


Re: What must I do ? Impossible!
What people don't cotton onto about Calvinists is that they are not necessarily Christians. Even if their (horrible) theology is correct, it proves nothing about them. Their works are Puritan- formal dressing, sabbath-keeping, water baptism and the like. A toned-down, literally a reformed Catholicism. They are unconverted, and fear taking a decision for Christ above everything.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 279 by iano, posted 11-16-2009 12:20 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 281 by iano, posted 11-16-2009 12:50 PM ochaye has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


(1)
Message 281 of 352 (535514)
11-16-2009 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 280 by ochaye
11-16-2009 12:38 PM


Re: What must I do ? Impossible!
What people don't cotton onto about Calvinists is that they are not necessarily Christians.
The same could be said of people from all denominations.
-
Even if their (horrible) theology is correct, it proves nothing about them. Their works are Puritan- formal dressing, sabbath-keeping, water baptism and the like. A toned-down, literally a reformed Catholicism.
Again, I only know them by what they say and in the main they seem alright - their doctrine not necessarily deflecting them from the grace they consider themselves to be subject of.
That said, I've heard/debated some on the likes of CARM and would agree the theology an appalling one - and the triumphalism of some of those who consider them 'the predestined elect" appallinging.
They are unconverted, and fear taking a decision for Christ above everything.
A decision for Christ? Sounds like a choice to me. A work in other words. Why, why, you... unreformed Roman Catholic you..

This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by ochaye, posted 11-16-2009 12:38 PM ochaye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 282 by ochaye, posted 11-16-2009 1:03 PM iano has replied

  
ochaye
Member (Idle past 5238 days)
Posts: 307
Joined: 03-08-2009


Message 282 of 352 (535517)
11-16-2009 1:03 PM
Reply to: Message 281 by iano
11-16-2009 12:50 PM


Re: What must I do ? Impossible!
quote:
The same could be said of people from all denominations.
There are very few people who would say that X, and Y, are not evangelical Christians (substitute names of any two well-known Calvinist preachers for X and Y). Try it, and see what happens.
quote:
in the main they seem alright
Wow. You've been lucky. They do nothing but lie, evade and get personal when they are cornered, in my experience. Just like Catholics and you know who.
quote:
Why, why, you... unreformed Roman Catholic you..
There you are, you see. We've both heard that before.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by iano, posted 11-16-2009 12:50 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 287 by iano, posted 11-16-2009 3:23 PM ochaye has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 283 of 352 (535522)
11-16-2009 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 270 by Blue Jay
11-16-2009 9:32 AM


Yes it does
Hi Bluejay,
Bluejay writes:
I see no point in continuing to discuss this with you.
That is a lot easier than refuting God's Word.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 270 by Blue Jay, posted 11-16-2009 9:32 AM Blue Jay has not replied

  
Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 2697 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


(1)
Message 284 of 352 (535524)
11-16-2009 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 275 by iano
11-16-2009 11:54 AM


Re: What must I do ? Impossible!
Hi, Iano.
I don't have the time nor have put in the required thought yet to answer you in entirety right now, but I want to respond briefly to three of your comments now:
iano writes:
I'd say the message the rich young ruler heard was:
"You ask me what you have to do to get eternal life? Well, you've followed the commandments: so far so good. All that's left for you to do is.."
I'm still stuck on this part:
quote:
If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.
Matthew 19:17
Jesus seems to be clearly stating that obedience to the commandments plays a role in one's salvation. The rest of the story could only be considered a grace-alone story if it contained Jesus clearly going back on that statement.
But, it seems problematic to have Jesus saying one thing, then going back on it, doesn't it?
-----
iano writes:
...which happens to coincide with Jesus looking at him and telling him that it's camel-through-a-needle hard for him.
Well, the young ruler wasn't present for that portion of the story. In fact, he didn't hear anything Jesus said about how difficult it would be, because he had already gone away by then.
-----
iano writes:
But degrees of glory sounded like nice things (even if in different degrees of niceness). Is Hell nice?
It's just us overfixating on the pinnacle: since we don't aspire to reach the lower degrees, we tend to view them as undesirable, and, since everyone gets some degree, we would feel like essentially the losers if all we got was the lowest degree.
But, our doctrine is that any degree of glory is infinitely better than this life.

-Bluejay (a.k.a. Mantis, Thylacosmilus)
Darwin loves you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by iano, posted 11-16-2009 11:54 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 285 by ochaye, posted 11-16-2009 2:45 PM Blue Jay has not replied
 Message 299 by iano, posted 11-17-2009 5:40 AM Blue Jay has replied

  
ochaye
Member (Idle past 5238 days)
Posts: 307
Joined: 03-08-2009


Message 285 of 352 (535525)
11-16-2009 2:45 PM
Reply to: Message 284 by Blue Jay
11-16-2009 2:40 PM


Re: What must I do ? Impossible!
quote:
Jesus seems to be clearly stating that obedience to the commandments plays a role in one's salvation.
Played.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 284 by Blue Jay, posted 11-16-2009 2:40 PM Blue Jay has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024