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Author Topic:   The Blasphemy Challenge
anastasia
Member (Idle past 4117 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 91 of 134 (382788)
02-05-2007 11:54 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by ringo
02-05-2007 11:45 PM


Ringo writes:

If you weren't putting limits on your mind, you could imagine more.

Nuh, uh. God has a long white beard and He is pretty fit for His age.

Unfortunately, my imagination doesn't come with any guarantees, and most likely won't get me anywhere near to anything which mught be true about God. May as well put my apples in a basket while I go climbing in the orchard. If I come down with more apples, good. If not, at least I have what I have.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by ringo, posted 02-05-2007 11:45 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 16626
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 92 of 134 (382790)
02-06-2007 12:03 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by anastasia
02-05-2007 11:54 PM


anastasia writes:

Unfortunately, my imagination doesn't come with any guarantees, and most likely won't get me anywhere near to anything which mught be true about God.

So there's no guarantee that your "god-sense" isn't just a malfunctioning imagination. Or even an imagination in chains.

Maybe if you dictated less to your imagination, it might be able to imagine the possibility of no God.

Prometheus Unbound. :)


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crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 93 of 134 (382792)
02-06-2007 12:21 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by anastasia
02-05-2007 11:43 PM


There is also the possibility that patterns do exist in things which can not be tested, and that shamans are the only ones who CAN see them.

Hey, yeah. I mean I guess there's the possibility that Santa Claus really does deliver toys to all the children of the world in one night, too!


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Doddy
Member (Idle past 4074 days)
Posts: 563
From: Brisbane, Australia
Joined: 01-04-2007


Message 94 of 134 (382801)
02-06-2007 1:30 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by anastasia
02-05-2007 11:43 PM


Any correlation between religious tendencies and people who don't miss patterns, or vice versa?

As it so happens, I do know of one study by Peter Brugger et al (Psychopathology, Apr/May 2001 vol 34, iss. 2, pg 75: Lateralized direct and indirect semantic priming effects in subjects with paranormal experiences and beliefs).

A group of 100 people were pre-screened for belief in the paranormal, and 12 strong believers and 12 strong non-believers (all women) were chosen. They were two words, a prime and a target. The first word (the prime) was a noun, and the second word (the target), was either a directly related word, an indirectly related word, an unrelated word or a pronounceable non-word (for control purposes). The relationship between the words was standardised by the use of 24 middle of the range people from the original 100.

The subjects had to press a button when they recognized a word, and as suspected both groups performed equally (pressed faster) when the prime was directly related to the target, and equally slowly at detecting unrelated words. However, the believers were much faster when the words were indirectly matched than the non-believers. The believers were also slightly faster, by 6% or so, when the words were unrelated.

It was also a significant finding of this study that when the words were presented to the right eye (thus the left side of the brain), all differences between believers and non-believers disappeared, but when presented to the left eye (the right side of the brain) the differences were pronounced.

I'll add the graph for you to see (but only for a while...). LVF/RH means left visual field, right hemisphere, in case you're wondering.


"Der Mensch kann was er will; er kann aber nicht wollen was er will." (Man can do what he wills but he cannot will what he wills.) - Arthur Schopenhauer
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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nator
Member (Idle past 334 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 95 of 134 (382873)
02-06-2007 8:33 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by anastasia
02-05-2007 8:36 PM


quote:
The human mind has to leave its petty survival instincts behind to contemplate something which is beautiful.

No, not really.

Humans find things that are symmetrical, beautiful, and that is directly linked to survival instincts.

Assymetry in the appearence of a potential mate can be a sign of genetic abnormality, you see.

Also, the sorts of depicted landscapes that people find most pleasing correspond to those landscapes that, in our evolutionary history, would have been good places to find food and water.

There is good reason to believe, in other words, that our basic aesthetic sense is natural and evolved, just like our moral sense and everything else about us.

quote:
You may not recognize God, but you surely must recognize something beyond reality to fully appreciate art.

We all have active fantasy lives, ana. We imagine all sorts of things, when awake and also while dreaming, and if we are in good mental health we recognize that none of that is real.

On the other hand, why must we be able to recognize something "beyond reality" to appreciate art? Art is "real", isn't it?

In this thread, even though you don't realize it. you keep making bold proclamations regarding Cognitive Science and Psychology.

It appears that you are not aware of the rather significant body of research in those fields that adresses pretty much everything you have been claiming comes from our "godsense". I suggest being a bit more cautious in your claims until you have studied up on the relevant research a bit.

By the way, are you ever going to tell me where the "godsense" part of the body is that evolved just like the "emotions" part of the body evolved?

Edited by nator, : No reason given.


'Explanations like "God won't be tested by scientific studies" but local yokels can figure it out just by staying aware of what's going on have no rational basis whatsoever.' -Percy

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool."- Richard Feynman

"Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends! Well I say there are some things we don't want to know! Important things!"
- Ned Flanders


This message is a reply to:
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nator
Member (Idle past 334 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 96 of 134 (382876)
02-06-2007 8:45 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by anastasia
02-05-2007 9:00 PM


quote:
I was an artist, and a poet, and I was forced to realize that the only way to define beauty is God.

Like I said, bone up on the science and you will realize how wrong you are.

Well, maybe you will.

quote:
You may certainly partake, but my original idea was that to shut yourself from religion was to shut yourself off from understanding so much of the symbolism of art.

But that's just knowledge about religious symbolism that every art-history major, regardless of religious belief, learns.

It has nothing to do with "Godsense", which is what you originally claimed.

Edited by nator, : No reason given.


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nator
Member (Idle past 334 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 97 of 134 (382877)
02-06-2007 8:52 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by anastasia
02-05-2007 10:56 PM


That's why people who are not taught don't have a god-sense. That's also why some are able to unlearn it.

quote:
Doesn't explain where it comes from though, does it?

Unless, of course, the teacher is God.


OK, let's assume that it comes from God.

Now what?

What have we learned? How has our understanding been increased? How can we test this conclusion to see if it is correct? How useful is this finding?


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nator
Member (Idle past 334 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 98 of 134 (382878)
02-06-2007 8:57 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by anastasia
02-05-2007 11:38 PM


quote:
So, now you want to say there is no god-sense, but a made-up story to fool the gullible. If this is your belief, then you do indeed have no religion, nothing beyond the natural to explain your existance, nothing but science to appease your searching mind. I can't imagine limiting my mind so much, when it has been given to me with so much capacity for something more.

So, is what you are saying is that it is less limiting of one's mind to observe a phenomena and say "I don't understand how this could happen, therefore Godidit"?

And are you saying that it is more limiting to your mind to look at a phenomena and say "I don't understand how this could be, so let's try to figure hout how it works so we can understand it."?

If so, then I guess your stance can be boiled down to:

Renaissance=Limited minds

Dark Ages=Unlimited Minds

Edited by nator, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by anastasia, posted 02-05-2007 11:38 PM anastasia has responded

Replies to this message:
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Jazzns
Member (Idle past 2076 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 99 of 134 (382925)
02-06-2007 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by crashfrog
02-05-2007 8:15 PM


I'd say most religions have a lot more to do with OCD.

Too bad most fundies don't give their moral crusades a rest to endlessly count the grains of wood in their floorboards.

Or was this just an accidental Ender's Game / Xenocide reference?


Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)
This message is a reply to:
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crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 100 of 134 (382944)
02-06-2007 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by Jazzns
02-06-2007 11:58 AM


Or was this just an accidental Ender's Game / Xenocide reference?

Nothing accidental about it, my friend. :D


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anastasia
Member (Idle past 4117 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 101 of 134 (383130)
02-06-2007 11:48 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by Doddy
02-06-2007 1:30 AM


Interesting stuff, Doddy.

Now, your graph says that believers and non-believers both use the left side of the brain equally.

Believers, here, have used the right side in a different way. Would it be correct to infer that they use the right side of the brain MORE? Please correct me if not. How do we know which side is being used without the test? Is that based on which hand we prefer? And can we noramlly choose to an extent which to work with?

If so, can this be taught? And what are some other areas where the right side of the brain is utilized more often than the left? Too many questions, yes. :)


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Replies to this message:
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anastasia
Member (Idle past 4117 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 102 of 134 (383133)
02-07-2007 12:00 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by nator
02-06-2007 8:57 AM


nator writes:

So, is what you are saying is that it is less limiting of one's mind to observe a phenomena and say "I don't understand how this could happen, therefore Godidit"?

Of course not. All of us are welcome to observe and study phenomena, whether we believe God created it or not.

And are you saying that it is more limiting to your mind to look at a phenomena and say "I don't understand how this could be, so let's try to figure hout how it works so we can understand it."?

No, it is limiting to study only those things which we can observe. Religion is not science, remember? It does not study what is observed, or proven, but what might be. It is not limiting unless the believer himself limits it.

Renaissance=Limited minds

Dark Ages=Unlimited Minds

Yes, you could say this. In the dark ages, imagination was great. :)You must remember, the enlightenment and the rennaissance were not the first instances of critical thinking in men. They were just a more wide spread acknowledgement of its value.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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anastasia
Member (Idle past 4117 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 103 of 134 (383137)
02-07-2007 12:12 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by ringo
02-06-2007 12:03 AM


Ringo writes:

Maybe if you dictated less to your imagination, it might be able to imagine the possibility of no God.

We all need to dictate less to our imagination, and we all need to dictate more if our imagination takes us beyond the scope of sanity. :) In the end, the issues of death and beyond death, are beyond our ability to do anything BUT imagine, so in that sense, one belief is as good as another. The only thing we have left is imagining other possibilities, which it seems we are very good at given the multitude of new religions which form. It is nice to study all of these ideas, but nothing to gain except finding a system which matches your own imagination.


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anastasia
Member (Idle past 4117 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 104 of 134 (383138)
02-07-2007 12:18 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by nator
02-06-2007 8:33 AM


nator writes:

On the other hand, why must we be able to recognize something "beyond reality" to appreciate art? Art is "real", isn't it?

I am not going to discuss this any further. The whole issue of 'art' is something personal in the road to my own understanding of God. It is beyond the topic or the scope of this thread, and I regret even bringing it here to be de-moralized. :)

By the way, are you ever going to tell me where the "godsense" part of the body is that evolved just like the "emotions" part of the body evolved?

No, I am not. It was a late-night semi-serious discussion between Ringo and myself that I do not expect to have any meaning outside of that which is already posted. I use no such word as 'god-sense' in normal vocabulary.


This message is a reply to:
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Doddy
Member (Idle past 4074 days)
Posts: 563
From: Brisbane, Australia
Joined: 01-04-2007


Message 105 of 134 (383144)
02-07-2007 1:37 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by anastasia
02-06-2007 11:48 PM


Anastasia writes:

Believers, here, have used the right side in a different way. Would it be correct to infer that they use the right side of the brain MORE?

Probably not. I think it is more of a 'calibration' thing than a dominance thing - as far as I know there is no correlation between hemisphere dominance and religious belief. They are more likely to see patterns, and that includes patterns which may not actually be there, but seem like it when you look at it.

Anastasia writes:

How do we know which side is being used without the test? Is that based on which hand we prefer? And can we noramlly choose to an extent which to work with?

All participants were right-handed.

Generally brain lateralization is used the same for all people, and the left hand side is the dominant one (only slightly though). That said, some people (more common in left-handed people) are the other way around, or are even bilateral (no hemisphere specialization), hence why left handed people weren't involved.

I know you can get a Wada test to tell which way you are, but I think I remember some psychological tests that you can do at home...I'll look for one.

Anastasia writes:

If so, can this be taught? And what are some other areas where the right side of the brain is utilized more often than the left? Too many questions, yes.

I'm fairly positive that it can't be taught.

Left brain does math, language , logic etc.

Right brain does abstract pattern perception, intuition, creativity etc

Edited by Doddy, : Added a few sentences to clarify

Edited by Doddy, : Fixed spelling


"Der Mensch kann was er will; er kann aber nicht wollen was er will." (Man can do what he wills but he cannot will what he wills.) - Arthur Schopenhauer
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