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Author
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Topic: Does Allah = Moon God?
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member
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Message 1 of 300 (307800)
04-29-2006 5:24 PM
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In the late closed thread, Does God = Allah my message 222 , in answer to Faith's question was additional support for the claim of many that Allah = Moon God. There were two direct responses to this message 222 , which were message 224 by Jar and message 250 by PaulK. Jar's message was totally substanceless of any specific points of my message so twice I requested that Jar address those specifics. His responses in 228 and 234 were his usual non answers to the specifics of my message 222 . PaulK did no better in his message 250 , with absolutely nothing, zada, as to the specifics of my message 222 in which I presented my support for the fact that Allah was once a pagan moon god. Hence this thread. This thread purpose is solely to debate the Allah = Moon God controversy. For my opener I'm quoting my message 222 of the now closed thread which was essentially a debate on whether the Quranic god Allah is one and the same as the Biblical god, Jehovah. The link quote is only an exerpt from the Pakistani link which goes into the history and archeology of Muhammed's region pertaining to the Allah/moon god debate. I believe this should be in Faith and Belief. I'll let another moderator weigh in on promoting.
Buz message 222 writes:
Faith writes: They deny that Allah was originally the Moon God, although it's one of the best attested historical facts. Do you have convincing evidence for this? All you need do is google "Allah moon god" and you get pages of info, including a few weak refuting sites. I've picked an experpt from a Pakastani link which appears to be one of the more objective, showing archeological evidence et al regarding this issue. I suggest folks interested click the link and read the whole thing which is not all that long. link writes: Let’s take a peek behind the crescent moon and see what scholars using undisputed sources have discovered, i.e., what the Truth is about the religion of Islam..... Historically, "Allah’ was not invented by Muhammad or revealed for the first time in the Qur’an. In fact, the word ”Allah’ was used in Arabia long before Muhammad was born.... There are over fifty reference works that state...that Allah was the Moon-god in pre-Islamic times.... For example, The Dictionary of Non-Classical Mythology states that Allah, ”originally applied to the moon; he seems to be preceded by Ilmaqah, the moon god...Allat; the female counterpart to Allah.’"3 In the report on the Public School episode in California it is stated that: "Arabia was a pagan nation that worshipped over 300 gods. One of those was the moon god named, al-ilah. Legend has it that the moon god mated with the sun god and had two daughters, both of whom were worshipped as goddesses. When Muhammad claimed to have had his ”vision’ and ”revelation’ from Gabriel he chose al-ilah as the god to build his army around. Muhammad shortened the name, al-ilah, to Allah, and declared that he alone should be worshipped. He forbade the worship of the daughters. To this day, a crescent moon can be found at the front of every mosque, acknowledging that Allah was, and is the moon god...." 4 http://www.pakistanchristianpost.com/sfdetails.php?id=52 Edited to establish urls and to tidy up the OP. This message has been edited by buzsaw, 04-29-2006 05:43 PM This message has been edited by buzsaw, 04-29-2006 09:56 PM
BUZSAW B 4 U 2 Z Y BUZ SAW
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 3 by PaulK, posted 04-30-2006 4:12 AM | | Buzsaw has replied | | | Message 4 by RickJB, posted 04-30-2006 4:21 AM | | Buzsaw has replied | | | Message 5 by Modulous, posted 04-30-2006 5:22 AM | | Buzsaw has replied | | | Message 12 by purpledawn, posted 04-30-2006 9:46 AM | | Buzsaw has not replied | | | Message 18 by jar, posted 04-30-2006 11:37 AM | | Buzsaw has not replied | | | Message 19 by lfen, posted 04-30-2006 11:49 AM | | Buzsaw has not replied | | | Message 21 by Faith, posted 04-30-2006 1:27 PM | | Buzsaw has not replied | | | Message 84 by DorfMan, posted 04-30-2006 6:40 PM | | Buzsaw has not replied | | | Message 170 by lfen, posted 05-01-2006 3:03 PM | | Buzsaw has replied | | | Message 188 by Faith, posted 05-02-2006 11:35 AM | | Buzsaw has not replied |
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AdminModulous
Administrator Posts: 897 Joined: 03-02-2006
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Message 2 of 300 (307847)
04-30-2006 3:56 AM
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Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
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PaulK
Member Posts: 17825 Joined: 01-10-2003 Member Rating: 2.2
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Message 3 of 300 (307851)
04-30-2006 4:12 AM
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Reply to: Message 1 by Buzsaw
04-29-2006 5:24 PM
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This has been discussed before
...And nothing new has been added. The rebuttals from Islamic sites exist and Buzsaw just dismisses them without comment - including the point I raised in 250. Without n ew evidence - and there's little evidence in the quoted link- I see no point in reopening this discussion. It's been discussed, Buzsaw couldn't support the claim then and he can't support it now. One earleir thread:
Topic: YHWH, Yahweh, Jehovah, adonai, lord, elohim, god, allah, Allah thread. - A useful link from that thread Robert Morey and Faith Defenders - religious cults, sects and movements(Morey is the sole source for the assertion that Allah is the Moon God). This message has been edited by PaulK, 04-30-2006 04:44 AM. This message has been edited by PaulK, 04-30-2006 04:59 AM This message has been edited by AdminModulous, 04-30-2006 04:59 AM - I removed a space character that crept into one of the URLs, effectively breaking it This message has been edited by AdminModulous, Sun, 30-April-2006 10:47 AM
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1 by Buzsaw, posted 04-29-2006 5:24 PM | | Buzsaw has replied |
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RickJB
Member (Idle past 5011 days) Posts: 917 From: London, UK Joined: 04-14-2006
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Message 4 of 300 (307852)
04-30-2006 4:21 AM
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Reply to: Message 1 by Buzsaw
04-29-2006 5:24 PM
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It'd be better topic if it was about the origins of ALL the Abrahamic faiths, not just Islam.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1 by Buzsaw, posted 04-29-2006 5:24 PM | | Buzsaw has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 13 by Buzsaw, posted 04-30-2006 9:47 AM | | RickJB has replied |
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Modulous
Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: 05-01-2005
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Message 5 of 300 (307855)
04-30-2006 5:22 AM
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Reply to: Message 1 by Buzsaw
04-29-2006 5:24 PM
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Let's look
From my reading it seems that the Arabic moon god was called 'Sin'. He was the chief god (father of gods) and was as such known as 'the god', or 'Al-ilah' which could be rendered as Allah. The God of Islam is not the moon god since His name is not Sin. However, he is certainly the 'chief god' (since there are no others), so the name Allah fits. This seems to fit well with Christian Arabs, who also worship Allah. And it might interesting to look at the Aramaic word for god 'Elah' which is basically pronounced the same as Allah. Since they are all Semitic languages, I'd be surprised if that's a coincidence, but perhaps someone else can shed a little light on that. Also of note is that Yah seems also to be a moon God of Egyptian origin - I believe this god has been associated with Sin, but who can be sure? Another interesting Egyptian connection with monotheism (other than the fact that the Egyptians experimented periodically with monotheism) is that the Egyptian divinely mysterious phrase 'Nuk pu nuk' or "I am that I am', which sounds awfully familiar. I'm entirely cool with older religions providing the influence for later ones. It is common for cultures to borrow gods, phrases, symbology from other areas. Often that is the best way to convert new people, by incorporating themes and ideas from what they already believe. That is why we see so many pagan themes in Christianity. I'm sure it made it easier for Mohammed to to talk about the one true god in terms that the Arabic pagans would understand. The phrase 'The god' was already in use, so why not co-opt it? In short, Allah seems to be have been one way of referring to the chief of gods, Sin, the moon god; father of gods. However, Muslims certainly do not worship Sin any more than Jews worship Yah or Christians worship Osiris (or Mithras, or whoever)
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1 by Buzsaw, posted 04-29-2006 5:24 PM | | Buzsaw has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 6 by Argusx43, posted 04-30-2006 6:22 AM | | Modulous has replied | | | Message 14 by Buzsaw, posted 04-30-2006 9:50 AM | | Modulous has not replied |
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Argusx43
Inactive Member
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Message 6 of 300 (307859)
04-30-2006 6:22 AM
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Reply to: Message 5 by Modulous
04-30-2006 5:22 AM
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Allah-MoonGod
Hello, I read also the other posts about this subject. As I see it (I can be wrong), and looking only at some archeological facts, ecpesially pictures of the crescent moon with star, I'm convinced it's really a moon God. Instead of all the long discussions , when I look to some photos and pictures, what is there more to be said? http://www.bible.ca/...m-photos-moon-worship.archealolgy.htm Also this about Islam: Arab Racism and A Carnal heaven. According to the literal Arabic translation of Sura 3:106,107,on judgement Day, only people with white faces will be saved. People with black faces will be damned. The Cult of the Moon God. Now, I have no quoran to check this, but if this is the case, than that's very shocking. Look also what's said about women!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 5 by Modulous, posted 04-30-2006 5:22 AM | | Modulous has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 7 by PaulK, posted 04-30-2006 6:33 AM | | Argusx43 has not replied | | | Message 8 by Modulous, posted 04-30-2006 6:39 AM | | Argusx43 has not replied | | | Message 9 by Buzsaw, posted 04-30-2006 9:27 AM | | Argusx43 has not replied |
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PaulK
Member Posts: 17825 Joined: 01-10-2003 Member Rating: 2.2
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Message 7 of 300 (307860)
04-30-2006 6:33 AM
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Reply to: Message 6 by Argusx43
04-30-2006 6:22 AM
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Re: Allah-MoonGod
After looking at the photos I'm even more convinced that you've got no real evidence. Because there's nothing of real significance there. As for the other matter it's off-topic in this thread and I would note that literal translations need not be accurate translations.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 6 by Argusx43, posted 04-30-2006 6:22 AM | | Argusx43 has not replied |
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Modulous
Member Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: 05-01-2005
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Message 8 of 300 (307862)
04-30-2006 6:39 AM
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Reply to: Message 6 by Argusx43
04-30-2006 6:22 AM
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Re: Allah-MoonGod
Hello, I read also the other posts about this subject. As I see it (I can be wrong), and looking only at some archeological facts, ecpesially pictures of the crescent moon with star, I'm convinced it's really a moon God. Welcome! The acid test is this: Do Muslims worship the Arabic moon God, Sin? No, is the answer. Did Arabs used to worship Sin? Yes. Could the moon symbology from Sin worship have been co-opted, possibly as an aid to conversion? Yes. If you read the Qu'ran it makes some pretty clear statements about moon worship:
Do not prostrate before the sun, nor the moon; you shall fall prostrate before the God who created them, if you truly worship Him alone I don't see what the point of your random anti-Islam propaganda about racism has to do with the topic. If you are online, you have access to the Quran, google is your friend.
(3:106) The day will come when some faces will be brightened (with joy), while other faces will be darkened (with misery). As for those whose faces are darkened, they will be asked, "Did you not disbelieve after believing? Therefore, suffer the retribution for your disbelief." (3:107) As for those whose faces are brightened, they will rejoice in GOD's mercy; they abide therein forever. The Muslims are fairly clear on who they worship:
(029:046)"We believe in what was revealed to us and in what was revealed to you, and our god and your god is one and the same; to Him we are
submitters."
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 6 by Argusx43, posted 04-30-2006 6:22 AM | | Argusx43 has not replied |
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member
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Message 9 of 300 (307878)
04-30-2006 9:27 AM
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Reply to: Message 6 by Argusx43
04-30-2006 6:22 AM
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Re: Allah-MoonGod
Argusx43 writes: Instead of all the long discussions , when I look to some photos and pictures, what is there more to be said? Hi Argusx43. A hearty welcome and thanks very much for the links which contain excellent information relative to this topic. I hope you become a regular here at EvC. To answer to your above question, I agree, but most of the folks here who've engaged in Islam topics tend to serve as apologetics for Islam, disregarding what appears to be empirical evidence nonsupportive to their positions in these debates. For the first link I needed to type in "moon god" in the search box to find the photos, et al. As I find the time, I want to address some of the evidence in these links and hope that our counterparts here will address the significant specifics of the evidence which has been provided before setting their minds against the great volumn of evidence there is out there supporting the moon god/Allah position.
BUZSAW B 4 U 2 Z Y BUZ SAW
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 6 by Argusx43, posted 04-30-2006 6:22 AM | | Argusx43 has not replied |
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member
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Message 10 of 300 (307879)
04-30-2006 9:31 AM
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Reply to: Message 3 by PaulK
04-30-2006 4:12 AM
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Re: This has been discussed before
Paulk, for objective debate here you need to copy and paste specific evidence which has been produced and refute the significant points of that evidence. This you and jar have thus far failed to do.
BUZSAW B 4 U 2 Z Y BUZ SAW
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 3 by PaulK, posted 04-30-2006 4:12 AM | | PaulK has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 15 by PaulK, posted 04-30-2006 9:58 AM | | Buzsaw has not replied |
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member
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Message 11 of 300 (307880)
04-30-2006 9:43 AM
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Reply to: Message 3 by PaulK
04-30-2006 4:12 AM
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Re: This has been discussed before
How about addressing some of the specifics in the link which you consider to be most supportive of your position and we'll address them? TO ALL: Springtime is very busy for me, so please bear with me as I will be sporadic in responses but will try to address all I possibly can. Hopefully others supportive my position will join in also to fill in the voids since there's so few of us.
BUZSAW B 4 U 2 Z Y BUZ SAW
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 3 by PaulK, posted 04-30-2006 4:12 AM | | PaulK has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 16 by PaulK, posted 04-30-2006 10:10 AM | | Buzsaw has not replied |
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3477 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: 04-25-2004
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Message 12 of 300 (307882)
04-30-2006 9:46 AM
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Reply to: Message 1 by Buzsaw
04-29-2006 5:24 PM
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Ancient vs Present
There's no denying that the names of the Gods for the ancient ancestors of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam were very different than they are today. Like everything else, religion evolved over time, just as language evolves over time. God is an English word, not present in the NT which was Greek.
God, Theos, Deus, Allah According to the link above:
The words "Al Ilh" and the word "Allh" were used by Christians years before the rise of Islam. So I was curious how Abrabic Chrisitans refer to the Chrisitan God today.
..."Allah" is therefore not a proper name, and also Arabic Christians use "Allah" in their Arabic Bible. From what I have read, the word "Allah" is not a proper name. So the ancient Arabs may have referred to Sin, the moon god, as Allah or a form of that, but that wasn't the God's name and doesn't mean that the muslims worship the moon god today, any more than Catholics worship the sun. If you want to argue that the use of ancient symbols means the belief is the same, then Christianity would have to pull the log out of its own eye.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1 by Buzsaw, posted 04-29-2006 5:24 PM | | Buzsaw has not replied |
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member
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Message 13 of 300 (307883)
04-30-2006 9:47 AM
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Reply to: Message 4 by RickJB
04-30-2006 4:21 AM
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Re: All We Can Handle Here
Hi Rick. I'm sure that we've got our plates full and running over on this one Allah/moon god subject.
BUZSAW B 4 U 2 Z Y BUZ SAW
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 4 by RickJB, posted 04-30-2006 4:21 AM | | RickJB has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 17 by RickJB, posted 04-30-2006 11:20 AM | | Buzsaw has not replied |
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member
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Message 14 of 300 (307884)
04-30-2006 9:50 AM
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Reply to: Message 5 by Modulous
04-30-2006 5:22 AM
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Re: Let's look
Thanks much, Modulous, for promoting my topic. I'll need to spend some time on your response here and get back. For now I need to leave my computer.
BUZSAW B 4 U 2 Z Y BUZ SAW
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 5 by Modulous, posted 04-30-2006 5:22 AM | | Modulous has not replied |
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PaulK
Member Posts: 17825 Joined: 01-10-2003 Member Rating: 2.2
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Message 15 of 300 (307887)
04-30-2006 9:58 AM
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Reply to: Message 10 by Buzsaw
04-30-2006 9:31 AM
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Re: This has been discussed before
Just to correct you I will point out that 1) The burden of providing evidence is primarily on you 2) The fact that the Quran forbids moon worship is evidence. A piece of evidence that you dismiss out of hand. 3) As I say the matter has been discussed before. We've had the objective debate and you failed to make a case. You ought to know that. So why try to waste time bringing it up again ? It's been discussed here, it's been debunked and I really don't know why this topic was approved because it's all been said. You know that as well as I do.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 10 by Buzsaw, posted 04-30-2006 9:31 AM | | Buzsaw has not replied |
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