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Author Topic:   Deism in the Dock
anglagard
Member (Idle past 858 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 105 of 270 (415765)
08-12-2007 12:16 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by Archer Opteryx
08-11-2007 10:27 PM


The Four (or more) Directions
What I see is four directions to the same truth. God is not an anthropomorphic Santa Claus that micromanages the creation, regardless of pleas or egotistical assumptions to the contrary. In order for any god to be the real God, it is necessary for God to be available for all, regardless of custom or birthplace.
While IMO there is great beauty to be found in the Qu'ran, the Vedas, and especially the New Testament, among other belief systems, such admirable attempts at an appropriate relationship with the divine are often wrongly interpreted far too narrowly to mean that only those humans who act, think, and indeed even look, exactly like the adherent provide an appropriate response among the so-called appropriately theistic.
What I see in this case is ultimately the exact opposite of that which is holy. The anthropomorphic god becomes Mao Zedong and paradise becomes the Cultural Revolution, where all who sought to live acted, thought, and even dressed completely alike.
I find it interesting that such a paradise is often the one promulgated among the supposedly most righteous (or should I say self-righteous) among the major religions. What is also interesting is that those who lived through the Cultural Revolution describe it not as paradise but rather 'hell on earth.'
When considering this fact, it is easy to see how and why the US was founded by deists allied with the most insightful Christians who understood any god that was not meant for all was indeed a false god.
More to the point, IMHO, Matayama Buddhism, Philosophical Taoism, Spinoza Pantheism, and Deism are four directions converging upon the same truth. That truth includes something not often seen among the self-described religious, a sense of humility before, coupled with an overwhelming drive to understand, God's creation.

Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis Bacon
The more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by Archer Opteryx, posted 08-11-2007 10:27 PM Archer Opteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by crashfrog, posted 08-12-2007 12:29 AM anglagard has not replied
 Message 107 by Rob, posted 08-12-2007 3:07 AM anglagard has not replied
 Message 108 by Archer Opteryx, posted 08-12-2007 5:38 AM anglagard has replied

  
anglagard
Member (Idle past 858 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 167 of 270 (416130)
08-14-2007 4:45 AM
Reply to: Message 166 by Rob
08-14-2007 2:17 AM


I Thought This Thread Was About Deism
I thought this thread was about Deism, which evidently is too complex an idea to be properly addressed by ideologues. Once again Rob, I wonder how God could possibly find enough room in your soul to find enough space to even be a consideration in your gargantuan ego.
But then again, I see that you are making friends among those who are also the self-proclaimed perfect, whatever the side of the fence they may lie upon.
Heaven forbid that there may be Deists like Jefferson, Locke or Voltaire, just like heaven forbid there may be Spinoza Pantheists like the namesake or Einstein or Joseph Campbell. What an awful thing to even entertain the idea that there may be more than one path to God when your puny tinhorn fuhrers have said otherwise. I can see that there are those who disagree with the First Amendment, that thing about freedom of religion, considering that we have such earthly gods in our presence that by their very existence shows that any religion but their own, inherently negates the necessity for any such law.
The only way to God is through Rob/Robs foursquare church/Robs translation of the Bible/Robs idiotic belief that CS Lewis is the be-all, end-all, of Christianity.
But of course we also have your new buddy, the almighty Crash. Like you he only allows two-bit thinking like a two-bit whore (bit as defined in the computer sense, either on or off, with nothing else). Either one must be a YEC fundie or one is the Neizchcean ideal, all or nothing with no room in between, lest the people who created not just religious tolerance but even modern democracy and indeed as part of the process, the scientific method itself, be called "weenies."
I look forward to your newfound commonality. Let's rock.

Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis Bacon
The more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by Rob, posted 08-14-2007 2:17 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by Rob, posted 08-14-2007 11:48 AM anglagard has not replied

  
anglagard
Member (Idle past 858 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 259 of 270 (416824)
08-18-2007 1:17 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by Archer Opteryx
08-12-2007 5:38 AM


Re: The Four (or more) Directions
Pardon me for being so late in responding.
I see a convergence between all four directions because all four directions see the universe, the world, and all the creatures of the creation, including people, as something that is meant to be understood, as opposed to chastised, ignored, or despised.
Since there appears to be such a conundrum about any modern definition of deism recently, I hope I am not being to presumptuous to quote from the book I am currently reading, so I may be allowed to present my understanding of the definition.
ABE - There is also that sense of awe and humility, indeed even a sense of celestial harmony, concerning the works of God, that I think places all four directions toward a similar conclusion. Contrast this with the metaphor of warfare and self-debasement so popular in some interpretations of western religion.
From "Ages in Chaos: James Hutton and the Discovery of Deep Time" by Stephen Baxter, page 27.
quote:
This 'Deist' thinking, a major break from the orthodox traditions of the time, had originated in seventeenth-century France, and flourished in England in the first half of the eighteenth century. The Deists accepted the Bible's moral authority but rejected its literal interpretation as a true history of the world. God wasn't banished, but His role was restricted to setting the universal laws. He emphatically did not tinker day to day in the working of the world, through miracles and Floods. Newton's vision of a world governed by simple laws led to its natural incorporation into the Deist vision, even though this was to some extent a misrepresentation of what Newton himself believed. Later Deism became well rooted in revolutionary America, counting Benjamin Franklin and the first three Presidents among its adherents.
I think that under this broad definition, most people who are not atheists and that accept a post-medieval modern understanding of the world, including such things as an old earth, the germ theory of disease, evolution, genetics, heliocentrism, physics, chemistry, geology, and biology may easily be considered Deists.
As one of my favorite quotes that so far as I know I made up goes - "I learn about God through the works of God rather than the words of Men."
So under the broad definition of Deism, as a Spinoza Panthiest, you can count me in.
How does it look for Taoism and Matayama Buddhism from your perspective, Archer? From what little I directly know, and trusting other sources, they appear Deist in the broad sense as well as they also appear to reject a micromanaging deity.
Edited by anglagard, : No reason given.

Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis Bacon
The more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Archer Opteryx, posted 08-12-2007 5:38 AM Archer Opteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 263 by Archer Opteryx, posted 08-18-2007 4:28 PM anglagard has not replied

  
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