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Author Topic:   Should those of religious faith be allowed to run this country?
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3937 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 124 of 308 (215028)
06-07-2005 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Faith
06-06-2005 6:16 PM


Re: What about a neo-con Muslim?
I simply have my doubts that there are many of these, and those who exist find themselves threatened into silence by the violent jihadists, the Wahabbis, threats of violent reprisals for what is considered their abdication of the truths of Islam.
I'll put my lot in with crash. I can personally testify to hundreds of Moslems who are some of the most peace loving and religious people I know. As much if not moreso than most Brothers and Sisters in Christ whom I know.
None are being "silenced by the violent jihadists" either. I would hate for this to decend into the madness that was the last thread on Islam but I cannot leave a falshood like this uncontested.

FOX has a pretty good system they have cooked up. 10 mil people watch the show on the network, FOX. Then 5 mil, different people, tune into FOX News to get outraged by it. I just hope that those good, God fearing people at FOX continue to battle those morally bankrupt people at FOX.
-- Lewis Black, The Daily Show

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Faith, posted 06-06-2005 6:16 PM Faith has not replied

Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3937 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 126 of 308 (215030)
06-07-2005 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by jar
06-06-2005 7:05 PM


Actually, mainstream Islam tends to consider Christians their misguided brothers of the faith. I guess technically we would be considered Infidels but in the, "at least they believe in the same God, too bad about that divinity of Jesus thing" kind of way.
Allah = The God
I am sure someone may be hatefull enough to dispute but it really dosen't matter. No one that matters cares about the opinions of biggots anyway.

FOX has a pretty good system they have cooked up. 10 mil people watch the show on the network, FOX. Then 5 mil, different people, tune into FOX News to get outraged by it. I just hope that those good, God fearing people at FOX continue to battle those morally bankrupt people at FOX.
-- Lewis Black, The Daily Show

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by jar, posted 06-06-2005 7:05 PM jar has not replied

Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3937 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 129 of 308 (215034)
06-07-2005 2:29 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by jar
06-06-2005 7:47 PM


Don't forget about salvation!
Moselms believe that Jesus is coming in the end to judge and save believers. Jesus is their savior too!

FOX has a pretty good system they have cooked up. 10 mil people watch the show on the network, FOX. Then 5 mil, different people, tune into FOX News to get outraged by it. I just hope that those good, God fearing people at FOX continue to battle those morally bankrupt people at FOX.
-- Lewis Black, The Daily Show

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by jar, posted 06-06-2005 7:47 PM jar has not replied

Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3937 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 211 of 308 (215330)
06-08-2005 12:37 PM


What happened to less government.
It seems silly to me the hypocrisy displayed by ultra conservative republicans supporting the ABoR. On one hand it is common for them to support the privatization of our public school so that government stays out of how we decide to raise our children and on the other they are desperately trying to create more government rules for public higher education.
Which is it? More or less government? Should Washington stick its nose into areas it thinks it knows better or not?
This is in particular where the true colors of the neo-con are visibly seen. They dont stand for traditional republican values at all. They stand for strict implementation of THEIR values and if that means more gov control in one place and less in another then no overriding philosophy of conservatism will abide.
Dont like your young adults being taught that our Founding Fathers were actually Deists? Dont like being tested on the geologic age of the earth or the concepts of biological evolution? Then dont get yourself a mainstream education.
No one is forcing young 18 year olds into state universities. It is not like the public education system and all its requirements. There are plenty of alternative education options out there for those who dont like objectivity and the rigor of real higher education that requires them to deal with ideas that they might not agree with like an adult.
God help us the day we start pandering to the feelings of university students. Higher learning isnt about making you feel good about your world view. It is about destroying your pre-conceptions so that you are able to actually learn new things and with luck, produce new knowledge. If your religious faith is not strong enough to withstand this punishment then you do not belong in the higher education system. Stand aside and out of the way of those who can deal with conflict, reason, and novelty.
What does all this have to do with religious leadership? It shows just how important it is for our religious leaders not to use their authority to push their religion. Although this is always a risk we should never prohibit someone from taking office based on their religion. We have the duty as citizens to expose and fight against anyone who is doing this which is why the ABoR is such an important topic. As long as there are elected officials who are blatantly undermining their duty to their people and country there needs to be an active citizenry to fight it.
When you are on the clock with my tax dollar you put country before personal beliefs. When you are at home can practice whatever faith you like and I will consistently fight for your right to do so.

FOX has a pretty good system they have cooked up. 10 mil people watch the show on the network, FOX. Then 5 mil, different people, tune into FOX News to get outraged by it. I just hope that those good, God fearing people at FOX continue to battle those morally bankrupt people at FOX.
-- Lewis Black, The Daily Show

Replies to this message:
 Message 220 by Faith, posted 06-08-2005 12:53 PM Jazzns has replied

Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3937 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 222 of 308 (215342)
06-08-2005 1:03 PM
Reply to: Message 220 by Faith
06-08-2005 12:53 PM


Re: What happened to less government.
No not tyranny, just keeping the govn't and especially outwardly extremist conservative govn't out of regulating higher education.
Like the others have been saying. In these rare examples that this law is supposed to support there are already measures in place to take care of this.
While I was going to school at UNM there was a prof who they basically forced into retirement after an incident where he overstepped his bounds as a professor and representative of his department and the university.
Universities like to keep their noses clean. If you are driving students, and therefore money, away from the university then there is a problem. I knew some profs who were having trouble getting their tenure just because they were considered "tough". It took the action of students to stand up for them to show that all they were doing was setting a better standard for education in our field.
You also never answered my question. What is it? More or less government? At what point do you abandon conservatism for protection from percieved victim status?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by Faith, posted 06-08-2005 12:53 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 223 by Chiroptera, posted 06-08-2005 1:08 PM Jazzns has replied
 Message 228 by Faith, posted 06-08-2005 2:04 PM Jazzns has replied

Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3937 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 224 of 308 (215345)
06-08-2005 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 223 by Chiroptera
06-08-2005 1:08 PM


Re: What happened to less government.
Aye. That is a good point. Pretty much everything about the ABoR flies right in the face of everything else conservative.
Now we really need to ask our right wing friends on this board why?
What is the reason for abandoning this pillar of conservatism for this socialistic venture?
Could it at all be that there is political or religious ideology getting in the way of the decision making of our valued conservative representation?

FOX has a pretty good system they have cooked up. 10 mil people watch the show on the network, FOX. Then 5 mil, different people, tune into FOX News to get outraged by it. I just hope that those good, God fearing people at FOX continue to battle those morally bankrupt people at FOX.
-- Lewis Black, The Daily Show

This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by Chiroptera, posted 06-08-2005 1:08 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 225 by Chiroptera, posted 06-08-2005 1:28 PM Jazzns has not replied

Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3937 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 238 of 308 (215374)
06-08-2005 2:52 PM
Reply to: Message 228 by Faith
06-08-2005 2:04 PM


Re: What happened to less government.
You are speaking completely from your own bias instead of trying to discover the valid information that has led to the Bill of Rights.
No. I am asking you a question. Combined with that question was my opinion of the situation. I'll rephrase the question for clarification.
What reason would there be for a die hard conservative to take a socialist stance on the issue of higher education?
I'll also rephrase my stance.
The only viable reason that a conservative would go directly against his/her political philosophy would be due to a greater allegiance to some other factor such as personal religious beliefs.
Why else? What would be a reason that a conservative would go against conservative principles that I am missing?

FOX has a pretty good system they have cooked up. 10 mil people watch the show on the network, FOX. Then 5 mil, different people, tune into FOX News to get outraged by it. I just hope that those good, God fearing people at FOX continue to battle those morally bankrupt people at FOX.
-- Lewis Black, The Daily Show

This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by Faith, posted 06-08-2005 2:04 PM Faith has not replied

Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3937 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 239 of 308 (215375)
06-08-2005 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 230 by Faith
06-08-2005 2:12 PM


Re: I'll check on lawsuits & evolutionism worries
Interestingly liberals aren't interested in discussing anything with David Horowitz, they just throw pies at him and engage in other forms of suppressive, violent and abusive treatment. Such respect for diversity of opinion!! Such concern for rights and freedoms from the self-styled liberal faction!!
Let me tell you about a bunch of other people that liberals dont or should not discuss policy with.
The KKK
Neo Nazis
(insert radical exclusionary group here)
There IS one major thing that liberals are intolerant of.....
....intolerance.
Unfortunatly, more and more of our elected leaders are falling into this category. Why the hell should we respect the opinion of people with a discriminative agenda?
And I know you have your canned speach about how the liberal definition of tolerance is nothing like the "real tolerance" that only you and the people who agree with you seem to be able to understand. The point is, not every opinion is worth giving credence to. This include ones that are identifiably unconstutional or previously demonstrated to be false such as YECism.

FOX has a pretty good system they have cooked up. 10 mil people watch the show on the network, FOX. Then 5 mil, different people, tune into FOX News to get outraged by it. I just hope that those good, God fearing people at FOX continue to battle those morally bankrupt people at FOX.
-- Lewis Black, The Daily Show

This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by Faith, posted 06-08-2005 2:12 PM Faith has not replied

Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3937 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 267 of 308 (215435)
06-08-2005 6:37 PM
Reply to: Message 258 by CanadianSteve
06-08-2005 4:57 PM


Re: Academic bill of rights my A**
The bottom line is that the bill is neutral, and no one has good reason to object to a set of principles being legislated.
Unnecessary legislation is very dangerous and it is suprising that a conservative would be in support of such a thing. Maybe you could answer the question that Faith has yet to tackle starting here:
Message 238
It is not only a question of need but also of motive especially in the absence of evidenced need.
My opinion is that the govn't needs to recognize the importance of and keep its nose out of academia. That is how we have gotten where we are and why fix it if it ain't demonstrably broke.
Then again you and Faith might actually post some evidence. I know you said before that such statistics don't exist but isn't that in and of itself telling? Why should we be passing legislation without thinking about if there is really a problem? Should some studies be commissioned and we, God forbid, think about the issue carefully and logically before we call for a vote?
I don't think that any of the liberals here have any specific problem ONLY with the language of the bill. You need to look at it in the context in which it is being introduced, the reason it is being introduced, the people who are introducing it, and the speed and lack of objective information used to support it. Taken in this light, the legislation "fails the common sense test" as good ol'e Tal would put it. Probably some of the only wise words that I have heard that brave soul ever say.
{ABE}
Fixed some spelling and such
This message has been edited by Jazzns, 06-08-2005 08:44 PM

FOX has a pretty good system they have cooked up. 10 mil people watch the show on the network, FOX. Then 5 mil, different people, tune into FOX News to get outraged by it. I just hope that those good, God fearing people at FOX continue to battle those morally bankrupt people at FOX.
-- Lewis Black, The Daily Show

This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by CanadianSteve, posted 06-08-2005 4:57 PM CanadianSteve has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 268 by Chiroptera, posted 06-08-2005 6:45 PM Jazzns has replied
 Message 272 by EZscience, posted 06-08-2005 10:35 PM Jazzns has not replied

Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3937 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 274 of 308 (215516)
06-08-2005 10:42 PM
Reply to: Message 268 by Chiroptera
06-08-2005 6:45 PM


Re: Academic bill of rights my A**
It really is silly sometimes.
"I can't give you evidence because it dosen't exist!"
We are being called intolerant and unreasonable for being critical of legislation that seems iffy. Yet the sense of injustice is so brutal. This just makes liberals more skeptical of the legislation because why does something as natural as academic integrity need to be treated with such controversy? Why the crusade against liberalism rather than the crusade for the general promotion of education and academia against all that slows it?

FOX has a pretty good system they have cooked up. 10 mil people watch the show on the network, FOX. Then 5 mil, different people, tune into FOX News to get outraged by it. I just hope that those good, God fearing people at FOX continue to battle those morally bankrupt people at FOX.
-- Lewis Black, The Daily Show

This message is a reply to:
 Message 268 by Chiroptera, posted 06-08-2005 6:45 PM Chiroptera has not replied

Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3937 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 276 of 308 (215518)
06-08-2005 11:01 PM
Reply to: Message 275 by dsv
06-08-2005 10:42 PM


Re: How things change.
I suppose that's just my opinion. I'm at university specifically for the professor's thoughts, teachings, and insights. That's what you're paying for, not to have curriculum read to you.
That is such a great point although I am not sure if it is entirely true.
In my college there was a specific set of knowledge that they were required to dispense to the students in order for the school to receive accreditation. I am pretty sure this is the case for most higher learning institutions.
Despite that, good professors often went beyond the box to teach us what we needed to know rather than just what we were required to know to be professionals in our field.
Regardless, the spirit of your argument is correct. I did not go to college to validate my own ideas about the world and my profession but rather to be instructed in the science and knowledge of The Greats in my field before me. I went for apprenticeship and to immerse myself in in a wealth of knowledge, not to validate what I already knew.
This message has been edited by Jazzns, 06-08-2005 09:02 PM

FOX has a pretty good system they have cooked up. 10 mil people watch the show on the network, FOX. Then 5 mil, different people, tune into FOX News to get outraged by it. I just hope that those good, God fearing people at FOX continue to battle those morally bankrupt people at FOX.
-- Lewis Black, The Daily Show

This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by dsv, posted 06-08-2005 10:42 PM dsv has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 279 by EZscience, posted 06-08-2005 11:09 PM Jazzns has not replied

Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3937 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 278 of 308 (215520)
06-08-2005 11:06 PM
Reply to: Message 277 by EZscience
06-08-2005 11:01 PM


Re: Academic bill of rights my A**
Because you claim that 'maleable' young students are ready and willing to sell out for test scores for fear of challenging the status quo !? When and where did you go to college ?
Don't you know? Conformity in academia is all the rage! I always got A's for expressing zero originality in all my work and totally conforming to all the ideas spood fed to me by my professors.
Now with my degree, I can go home and feel totally content when I curl up in a corner with my blanket and memorize exactly what the TV tells me is real.
{My friends think I need more sarcasm in my life, sorry} =)

FOX has a pretty good system they have cooked up. 10 mil people watch the show on the network, FOX. Then 5 mil, different people, tune into FOX News to get outraged by it. I just hope that those good, God fearing people at FOX continue to battle those morally bankrupt people at FOX.
-- Lewis Black, The Daily Show

This message is a reply to:
 Message 277 by EZscience, posted 06-08-2005 11:01 PM EZscience has not replied

Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3937 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 287 of 308 (215613)
06-09-2005 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 284 by CanadianSteve
06-09-2005 9:50 AM


Re: Academic bill of rights my A**
Overall the, academic freedom is good parts of the transcription were great! I doubt anyone here would argue with that. Here are some problems though and the major sticking points come from these:
It is not an education when a mid-term examination contains a required essay on the topic, Explain Why President Bush Is A War Criminal, as did a criminology exam at the University of Northern Colorado in 2003.
A valid topic for a criminology class especially one dealing with international law. How better to put a students objectivity to the test by making them build a case against their own president. Clearly a case of allowable controversy used in the classroom legitimately. The problem is that he mixes this invalid objection with a valid one:
It is not an education when a professor of property law harangues his class on why all Republicans are racist as happened at the Colorado University Law School in 2004.
Clearly a violation of the academic responsibilities of a professor. I hope something was done about this. But then we bookend it with another invalid criticism:
It is not an education when a widely-used required Peace Studies textbook, described by the professor as a masterpiece, explains that the Soviet Union was a force for peace in the Cold War and the United States was not, that revolutionary violence is the only justifiable violence, and that the United States is the greatest terrorist state and does so without making students aware that there are other interpretations of this history and other views that should be considered on these matters. This extremist text, Peace and Conflict Studies, written by two university professors who explain in their preface that they are partisans of the political left is the required academic textbook for students in the Peace Studies course at Ohio State University (Marion).
CLEARLY Peace Studies is a special topics class and nothing that any student would be forced to take for any reason. We had plenty of those classes available when I went to school and they are necessarily the fringe and unimportant classes that few if any take except for personal interest. Also, in those classes, often there would be many texts that were covered often carrying opposing views because there is no hard curriculum for those kinds of classes. No mention was made of this being the exclusive text of the class.
Here then rises my first objection. If there are so many examples of this, why are two of them chosen that need a stretch and play of words to make them seem extreme? In school I was glad for the times I was forced to challenge my established thinking. I consider those times, albeit uncomfortable at the time, some of the greatest learning experiences of my life. How much easier would it have been for that criminology professor to make everyone build a case for Saddam Hussein as a war criminal? That would have been way too easy and not required his students to think out of the box at all.
Three principal objections have been made to the Senate Bill 24, all of them groundless. The first is that the Bill would impose political standards on higher education. This is an invention of opponents of the Bill, whose text could not be clearer on this matter: students [shall] have access to a broad range of serious scholarly opinion pertaining to the subjects they study. In other words, the standards imposed by the Bill are scholarly not political.’
Here he totally misses the point. That excerpt from the bill is NOT objective in regards to what is considered serious scholarly opinion. Who decides this? The law makers? Judges? Public opinion?
Here then is my second major objection. What determines serious scholarly opinion needs to be decided by accreditation boards and the scholars in the field. This is how it works now and there is already a system in place to punish schools that don’t follow this. They do not receive or maintain their accreditation.
What this is doing is removing one of the important components of academia which is the self imposing checks derived from competition and placing them in law. Imagine if we started telling manufacturing companies that there was only 1 legal way to make a widget rather than allowing them to compete with each other to produce a better and better widget; each step of the way ensuring quality and innovation.
This ties into my overall objection which no-one has yet to respond to which is what reason a conservative has to impose this extremely non-conservative legislation? When it comes to the arena of business or commerce there is no way a republican would be caught dead fighting so hard to impose similar restrictions. Conservatives are well known for their stance wanting less government oversight on many issues so what is the difference here? Why should we ignore the religious and political extremism demonstrated by this person with regards to this supposed neutral legislation as a motivating factor?
The AAUP has particularly singled out the following clause in the Senate Bill for disapproval: Faculty and instructors shall not infringe the academic freedom and quality of education of their students by persistently introducing controversial matter into the classroom or coursework that has no relation to their subject of study and that serves no legitimate pedagogical purpose. According to the AAUP and opponents of the Bill generally, this stipulation is an infringement of the free speech rights of professors.
In fact, the issue here is not the free speech rights of professors as private citizens, but what is appropriate to a classroom, and in particular what form of discourse constitutes indoctrination as distinct from education.
The sticking point here is that when a professor crosses the line and starts ranting about politics in an engineering class that he needs to loose his job. What this legislation would do is all of the sudden make their coursework a civil liability. This will stifle speech in the classroom and discourage people from teaching in higher education which always has a hunger for more quality instructors.
There are certain things you should be civilly liable for. In my job I am civilly liable for the purposeful or accidental release of medical information. I can be sued if I make a programming error that causes patient records to be made public or sent to an unauthorized third party. This is a case where that makes perfect sense. Taking a professor to court for what he/she says in the classroom that is not related to his/her topic is a direct violation of free speech. Granted, he/she is not protected from being fired for ignoring his/her responsibility as an instructor but in no way should there be any possibility of civil discourse against an instructor
The reasons for enacting Senate Bill 24 are that too many faculty members at our universities no longer observe their responsibility to teach and not to indoctrinate students; that university administrations no longer enforce their faculty guidelines on academic freedom;
This has yet to be demonstrated. Bare links do not count on this board. Assertions count even less.
and that the existing guidelines are not codified as student rights; as result students currently have no way to redress their grievances.
How about we require universities to install a grievance process for students to use when issues like this come up rather than institute sweeping legislation and unnecessary government involvement? Of course no one could suggest this because any institution of higher learning worth its salt already has this and to impose anything less than what is being offered will not satisfy the religious and political extremist goals of the speaker.
In this situation legislatures have a fiduciary responsibility as the elected representatives of the taxpayers who fund these institutions -- to step in and provide a remedy.
This is correct but misguided. It is first their responsibility to determine objectively that there is a situation needing remedy. If this has already been done then there should be no problem for either you or Faith to link to a committee report detailing the state of academic freedom in state schools of higher education.
Here lies my last objection. While making law, legislators should be asking the question of where is the evidence of need for this law. That is why they (should) make committees and entertain lobbying efforts and commission studies to determine what is actually true rather than irresponsibly constructing legislation without objective knowledge.
Far be it from me to question favoring the few glossy examples of a politician with an agenda over an objective bi-partisan commission on the real state of our institutions of higher learning.
{minor spelling edits and such}
This message has been edited by Jazzns, 06-09-2005 09:19 AM

FOX has a pretty good system they have cooked up. 10 mil people watch the show on the network, FOX. Then 5 mil, different people, tune into FOX News to get outraged by it. I just hope that those good, God fearing people at FOX continue to battle those morally bankrupt people at FOX.
-- Lewis Black, The Daily Show

This message is a reply to:
 Message 284 by CanadianSteve, posted 06-09-2005 9:50 AM CanadianSteve has not replied

Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3937 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 292 of 308 (215629)
06-09-2005 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 290 by Faith
06-09-2005 12:03 PM


Re: Academic bill of rights my A**
What is the purpose of this post? While I do enjoy the occasional snipes on this board when they also make a point I fail to the see the substance.
In particular, where was he rude?

FOX has a pretty good system they have cooked up. 10 mil people watch the show on the network, FOX. Then 5 mil, different people, tune into FOX News to get outraged by it. I just hope that those good, God fearing people at FOX continue to battle those morally bankrupt people at FOX.
-- Lewis Black, The Daily Show

This message is a reply to:
 Message 290 by Faith, posted 06-09-2005 12:03 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 295 by Faith, posted 06-09-2005 12:39 PM Jazzns has replied

Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3937 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 294 of 308 (215634)
06-09-2005 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 293 by Chiroptera
06-09-2005 12:24 PM


Re: Academic bill of rights my A**
Quite the bastion of rationality this guy is.
WOW!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 293 by Chiroptera, posted 06-09-2005 12:24 PM Chiroptera has not replied

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