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Author Topic:   Origins of the Judeo-Christian god and religion
ohnhai
Member (Idle past 5162 days)
Posts: 649
From: Melbourne, Australia
Joined: 11-17-2004


Message 211 of 282 (309545)
05-05-2006 11:34 PM
Reply to: Message 199 by Faith
05-05-2006 9:56 PM


Re: False Gods
faith writes:
This idea that they were just other people's gods and valid for THEM has no support in the Bible at all.
Of course the bible doesn’t support the validity of other gods! It was written to support it's particular religion and in turn re-enforce that religion's god.
Strewth. To assume otherwise would be like expecting Microsoft to extol the virtues of Mac OSX and or Lunix in their own Manuals for XP. It not going to happen. Microsoft is out to push its brand as much as the Bible is out to push its.
It is just, you are so slavishly committed to this one brand you have bought into the propagandas ”word for word’ that when you are told that your god is the one true god you except that blatant and obvious propaganda as self evident truth.
Come on Faith. Wake up and smell the spin.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by Faith, posted 05-05-2006 9:56 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 212 by arachnophilia, posted 05-05-2006 11:40 PM ohnhai has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 212 of 282 (309547)
05-05-2006 11:40 PM
Reply to: Message 211 by ohnhai
05-05-2006 11:34 PM


Re: False Gods
Strewth. To assume otherwise would be like expecting Microsoft to extol the virtues of Mac OSX and or Lunix in their own Manuals for XP. It not going to happen. Microsoft is out to push its brand as much as the Bible is out to push its.
this argument works exactly as well for the bible as it works for microsoft. in other words, tell that to my 20 year old macintosh, that has a copy of microsoft word on it.
This message has been edited by arachnophilia, 05-05-2006 11:40 PM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by ohnhai, posted 05-05-2006 11:34 PM ohnhai has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by ohnhai, posted 05-05-2006 11:45 PM arachnophilia has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 213 of 282 (309548)
05-05-2006 11:42 PM
Reply to: Message 210 by Faith
05-05-2006 11:33 PM


Re: Israel's religion OPPOSES the cultures of the time
The whole Biblical story is OBVIOUSLY counterculture. If that isn't obvious to you when you read it I guess I can't convince you.
it is a great irony that counter-culture is part of the culture.
we can't look back on the psychadelic movement of the 60's and say "that doesn't count, it's counter-culture." nor can we say the same of the punk movement, or the underground rap movement.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by Faith, posted 05-05-2006 11:33 PM Faith has not replied

  
ohnhai
Member (Idle past 5162 days)
Posts: 649
From: Melbourne, Australia
Joined: 11-17-2004


Message 214 of 282 (309549)
05-05-2006 11:45 PM
Reply to: Message 212 by arachnophilia
05-05-2006 11:40 PM


Re: False Gods
this argument works exactly as well for the bible as it works for microsoft. in other words, tell that to my 20 year old macintosh, that has a copy of microsoft word on it.
And lo, the Word of The great God Bill was heard even in the land of heathens. Bill saw this and thought it good.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by arachnophilia, posted 05-05-2006 11:40 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 215 by arachnophilia, posted 05-05-2006 11:54 PM ohnhai has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 215 of 282 (309551)
05-05-2006 11:54 PM
Reply to: Message 214 by ohnhai
05-05-2006 11:45 PM


Re: False Gods
And lo, the Word of The great God Bill was heard even in the land of heathens. Bill saw this and thought it good.
but the Blue Screen of Death will come as a thief in the night; in which Microsoft Windows shall pass away with a great noise, and the Hard Drive shall melt with fervent heat, the RAM also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by ohnhai, posted 05-05-2006 11:45 PM ohnhai has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 216 by ohnhai, posted 05-06-2006 12:03 AM arachnophilia has not replied

  
ohnhai
Member (Idle past 5162 days)
Posts: 649
From: Melbourne, Australia
Joined: 11-17-2004


Message 216 of 282 (309554)
05-06-2006 12:03 AM
Reply to: Message 215 by arachnophilia
05-05-2006 11:54 PM


Re: False Gods
but the Blue Screen of Death will come as a thief in the night; in which Microsoft Windows shall pass away with a great noise, and the Hard Drive shall melt with fervent heat, the RAM also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
The mighty BSOD is his divine punishment for daring to doubt in his supreme infalibility.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by arachnophilia, posted 05-05-2006 11:54 PM arachnophilia has not replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 217 of 282 (309556)
05-06-2006 12:23 AM
Reply to: Message 200 by Faith
05-05-2006 9:58 PM


Re: The revisionist pattern
you only say that because he's yours. so many say that about theirs. and they are all right. in their own minds. but you can't build a house on shifting sand. and you can't build a house out of paper and ink.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by Faith, posted 05-05-2006 9:58 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 218 of 282 (309563)
05-06-2006 1:25 AM


I don't think these things because I believe; I believe because I'm convinced they are true.
But there's no convincing anyone who sees things the other way around. And this thread was originally intended to be about extra-Biblical information.
This message has been edited by Faith, 05-06-2006 01:28 AM

Replies to this message:
 Message 222 by arachnophilia, posted 05-06-2006 2:23 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 260 by SuperNintendo Chalmers, posted 05-06-2006 9:24 PM Faith has not replied

  
ohnhai
Member (Idle past 5162 days)
Posts: 649
From: Melbourne, Australia
Joined: 11-17-2004


Message 219 of 282 (309566)
05-06-2006 1:34 AM
Reply to: Message 200 by Faith
05-05-2006 9:58 PM


Re: The revisionist pattern
Yahweh is no ordinary god. He is utterly different from the kinds of gods people invent -- and people DO invent gods, all the others.
As you freely admit, people do invent their gods. You even state that all but one are the invention of the human mind. That is quite a large list of gods you dismiss as mear inventions. Click here to see How vast that list truly is.
Now: how do you actually justify the claim that out of all the gods listed on that site, that you freely assert are simple inventions of humans, that the one and only the one you happen to believe in is the only one that isn’t equally an invention of the human mind?
If the MANY THOUSANDS of deities, that you don’t believe in, are in fact fictional entities then the odds are overwhelmingly in favour that yours God is also a fictional deity. It’s just that you happen to believe he is real, just as the followers of ALL those other gods believed their god/s were real.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by Faith, posted 05-05-2006 9:58 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 220 by Faith, posted 05-06-2006 1:46 AM ohnhai has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 220 of 282 (309569)
05-06-2006 1:46 AM
Reply to: Message 219 by ohnhai
05-06-2006 1:34 AM


Re: The revisionist pattern
There's no point in arguing this with you. The God of the Bible is different, totally different, God of Gods over all the gods of the earth, judges all the other gods, and all the rest of them are similar to each other -- yes, millions of them really. I think this is obviously the point of view of the Bible, whether anybody believes it or not. Throughout the Bible Yahweh is presented not as just some tribal God but as the God over the whole earth. Take it or leave it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 219 by ohnhai, posted 05-06-2006 1:34 AM ohnhai has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 221 by arachnophilia, posted 05-06-2006 2:18 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 223 by arachnophilia, posted 05-06-2006 2:24 AM Faith has replied
 Message 224 by ohnhai, posted 05-06-2006 3:21 AM Faith has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 221 of 282 (309576)
05-06-2006 2:18 AM
Reply to: Message 220 by Faith
05-06-2006 1:46 AM


Re: The revisionist pattern
There's no point in arguing this with you.
yes, there certainly is not. that would take evidence, and reasoning, and logic, and most importantly effort and a will to explain yourself.
this is the sign of a weak position, and a troubled belief. the faith that turns away does so for fear that its weakness might be exposed. but the faith that cannot stand up to questions should not stand at all.
why else would an evangelist resist the opportunity to evangelize? this is a cop out if i have ever heard one. why be here if not to argue? it can't be encouraging to your faith, not when you feel the need to sheild it from argument.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by Faith, posted 05-06-2006 1:46 AM Faith has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 222 of 282 (309577)
05-06-2006 2:23 AM
Reply to: Message 218 by Faith
05-06-2006 1:25 AM


I don't think these things because I believe; I believe because I'm convinced they are true.
convincing of truthfulness is a measure of belief -- but you mean to indicate that there is something factual about your belief. that is based on evidence. it's not belief, it's a matter of evidence.
of what meaning is "faith" if it's based on evidence?
religion is a matter of faith, and it should never be any different. faith is a beautiful thing, but to demean it to fact does nothing but damage the meaning of belief, the meaning of fact, and the key to our salvation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by Faith, posted 05-06-2006 1:25 AM Faith has not replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 223 of 282 (309578)
05-06-2006 2:24 AM
Reply to: Message 220 by Faith
05-06-2006 1:46 AM


Re: The revisionist pattern
The God of the Bible is different, totally different,
you said this before.
tell me, have you read much ancient literature? have you read gilgamesh, or any other literature of the area and era? have you read the bhagavad gita, or the upanishads? have you read the norse epics? beowulf?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by Faith, posted 05-06-2006 1:46 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 227 by Faith, posted 05-06-2006 9:29 AM arachnophilia has replied

  
ohnhai
Member (Idle past 5162 days)
Posts: 649
From: Melbourne, Australia
Joined: 11-17-2004


Message 224 of 282 (309582)
05-06-2006 3:21 AM
Reply to: Message 220 by Faith
05-06-2006 1:46 AM


Re: The revisionist pattern
Faith writes:
The God of the Bible is different, totally different, God of Gods over all the gods of the earth, judges all the other gods, and all the rest of them are similar to each other -- yes, millions of them really.
Faith writes:
Throughout the Bible Yahweh is presented not as just some tribal God but as the God over the whole earth. Take it or leave it.
“Our god is SOOOOO much better than your god. Look, look here in this book we wrote to tell you how super he is. See? It says he is so super and the one true god. Wow! Isn’t that great? Praise the Lord: how else could a book we wrote confirm our beliefs so utterly if it wasn’t all divine truth!?”
Faith writes:
There's no point in arguing this with you.
Why? Why is there no point? Is it because I refuse to take the words in the bible as true because those very same words tell me they are true?
GOD writes:
I here by state that this is the undeniable word of god, and not to be gainsaid by any man. You will suffer no truths other than what is written here. So sayeth the Lord God.


Ohnhai, is the son of God returned to judge you all


Yours Truly,
GOD
Do you believe? Do you take that as self evident truth? Does the fact it clearly states that what is written is the true word of god, hold no sway with you? No? Why not?
Hang on . just noticed something.
Faith writes:
. God of Gods over all the gods of the earth, judges all the other gods . yes, millions of them really.
Previously on Faith Radio .
Faith in post 200 writes:
. the kinds of gods people invent - and people DO invent gods, all the others
{my bold}
So you have changed you mind as to the existence of all other gods? Seems that way. So: why the switch? Would you prefer to let all the other - lesser - gods exist under the dominion of your god, rather than decry this extended pantheon as ”utter fiction’ due to the real questions that doing so naturally raises as to the validity of your own god’s existence as anything other than fiction?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by Faith, posted 05-06-2006 1:46 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 226 by Faith, posted 05-06-2006 9:23 AM ohnhai has replied
 Message 232 by Faith, posted 05-06-2006 10:29 AM ohnhai has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 225 of 282 (309595)
05-06-2006 9:03 AM
Reply to: Message 196 by Buzsaw
05-05-2006 9:47 PM


Re: False Gods
Thank you for the references Buz.
The two you shared seem to contrast physical idols (which are not gods) with the Jewish God (who is a real god).
When looking at the origins of Judaism though, the writings depicting the early years don't seem to imply that other gods are not real or not gods.
I noticed Faith's comments on Isaiah, but again I wonder if the description of true God depicts that the Hebrew God is real and the others aren't or that the Hebrew God is true as in faithful to his followers contrasted with the fickleness of some of the heathen gods. Hard to trust a god who changes his mind on a whim.
The Hebrew God is the trustworthy God, whereas the others are not. Not that the Hebrew God is the only real god and the others are fiction, which is what I assume you mean by false gods.
What isaiah is saying does not surprise me since his writings are from the Hebrew God's perspective. Just as the Bible is from the Hebrew perspective.
In our American history it is written how America was discovered. From a Native American perspective I doubt if they would write about when they were discovered. From their perspective it was more of an invasion.
I don't feel that the writings depicting the early years of the Hebrews describes a group who thought the heathen gods were fiction or unreal.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
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