egotheistic pantheism revealed...

Get your prepositions straight.There's a difference between talking "through" a donkey and talking "to" a donkey. For one thing, you have to make yourself heard above the braying.

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i just have to. at a later point I'll bring up some serious stuff. but for now, the humor: so God was plagiarizing when he created the universe? News to me. Always thought he was the "original", the "alpha" (and omega, but that's a different story). If he's THE first, how can he not be original?oops.

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you know, another person on this board (Herepton, aka Ray) had a very similar phrase. Except, if you disagreed with him it proved he was right. In my opinion, he's a touch crazy, and not just for that phrase of his. I know you're not Ray Martinez, but you're quite close at times, especially with that.Oh, by the way, law of non-contradiction isn't violated. pretty basic. see, one of the many paths to God is that there is only one path to God. And I'm not twisting anything here, or bending my mind. so a religion that does say there are many paths to God (or even unlimited) isn't exclusive, because the exclusive nature of the single path is but one of the many paths.oops.[ABE]
i'm including this now so as to not take up any more precious property in this thread--there is a middle ground. That comment you made in the OP, that as surely there's a hell there's no middle ground is invalidated by hell. You believe in Heaven and Hell, no? Hell is where we go if we fail to be saved, whatever that actually means. So we don't start in Heaven (the place the saved go), or in Hell (because we haven't been graded yet). And then there's the purgatory for many christians, which from what I gather is the trial that determines your grade after you die. The ancient greeks had three different places to go after death--a hell, a heaven, and then a place for common folk. There is plenty of middle ground, Rob, regardless of whether or not you see it.one last note, to jar:
topos by the USGS are pretty damn accurate, so long as your not dealing with ones that haven't been updated since the 50s or 70s.
but then, i get the feeling we're not talking about the same maps
(i'm no good with emoticons . . .)

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No. No. No. Need I say it again? NO!!
Quit misrepresenting it.the whole point of relativity is not that you can get away with doing whatever you want, but recognizing that what I find to be wrong and right differ from what you find to be wrong and right. You can still follow your own mores, whatever they happen to be. I just can't make an absolute statement as to their "correctness", because my own mores aren't absolute.This doesn't stop me from thinking that what you may have done is wrong. I still can, and so can you. I need only realize that you'll disagree because you've a different set of mores you think right.Keep in mind, this still doesn't free you to do "whatever you want"--you are allowed to follow YOUR mores.And I may get suspended for this, but what kind of person are you, who needs an absolute thing in order to have mores? Can you not think for your self? Or do you need someone holding your hand, because otherwise you might be a "base" person? Of course, with all your quoting, I'd have to say you do need someone to hold your hand, that you can't think on your own. In other words, you are at best a timid, little person who has to be told what to do, and you gladly do such because you cannot escape the box you live in, and cannot imagine escaping the box, nor have a desire to. You are the very person dictators rely on to hold on to their power, you are the very person that allows atrocities to be committed because you afraid to think on your own--if your "leader" says its okay, you'd do it, or approve of it.Here's a challenge for you--don't quote Lewis, the Ravi, or any of the Bible. Speak your own damn mind for once. And I don't mean in your little banter with others--I mean the next time you feel the need to post a sermon or some other significant post where you're trying to get a point across (your's just tend to be sermons)

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It has always been my belief that either we were imagined/created by God long before we as humans had the capability to define our religious beliefs or we imagined God and spread many stories and myths to keep the concept and legend alive.I believe the former: We were made in His image...His imagination. I won't attempt to push this belief only because I wouldn't or shouldn't be an Ego theist. I don't identify my self with God in a conscious way, except to perhaps believe that I am in Communion (a common union) with His Spirit at times....(always? I dunno )

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Convictions are very different from intentions. Convictions are something God gives us that we have to do. Intentions are things that we ought to do, but we never follow through with them.
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"Atheism is so senseless. When I look at the solar system. I see the earth at the right distance from the sun to receive the proper amounts of heat and light. This did not happen by chance."- --Sir Isaac Newton

wait, so you now you're the Black Knight who refused to give up, regardless that he'd lost all limbs (except head)?He was funny too. Funnier still, King Arthur got arrested by the british police of the 20th century.Not only do you scare, you confuse Rob. All we can do is laugh at your inneffectiveness and your sincerity and your refusal to realize your failure. Funny, and very tragic. How Bushish. Good think you don't hold the lives of this country in your hands.

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All I know is that if I were a pantheist I could not be Catholic too.
Sounds mutually exlcusive to me.Edited by anastasia, : No reason given.

Oh i see the main topic has morphed significantly. At one time it was... So we just necked down from around maybe 20% of the planet to somewhere around .00001%. A minor adjustment, perhaps a slightly smaller windmill.Not to mention Rob never explained the "especially" part.

There's a difference between talking 'through' a donkey and talking 'over' a donkey, and not one that requires elevation. Talking 'over' a donkey seems a good strategy for those who wish to be heard 'above' the braying.

Only if the listener and the talker are both taller than the donkey.Fortunately, I think you and I are about the same height.

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I agree with you completely. Only in a spiritual sense are we now in Christ. God will not impart the fullness of His glory to us until the ressurection. 'No flesh shall glory in His presense', and all that... We simply can't handle that kind of power.Just look at me as to why... I do get a little caught up at times. More so in the past, and with a God shaped learning curve, I pray less so in the future.What is interesting is that Christ was the embodiment of God. So He is the consumate egotheist in the sense of the definition. But there is nothing egoic about Him... So I think the definition imparts a flavor of conceit that is only truthful when applied to the pantheist stripe of it.For Christ it was simply reality revealed.For the mere man, be it ancient Egyptian Pharoahs, or modern day New Age mystics, it is plain blasphemy!Thanks for the reasearch by the way... I appriciate that! I want to say that I have been rather irresponsible here at EVC. I am not talking about the misattributions of pantheism in this thread. I may have promoted myself better had I not been so impatient, but the whole notion of promoting myself is more to the point.For example, I told Iceage not to hold his breath in relation to much of a response from pantheists...The part that troubles me is my taunting of them in saying it so. I am a proud man. Too proud really. And that pride makes my message one of hypocrasy in a horribly disfiguring way.I have tried to own these ideas too often. To present them as my own. But if anything, the one thing getting in the way of the message is me.For I am not the message. I am only a messenger. Someone said that I should own my ideas. No, they have it backwards... God has already thought of everything.If I claim anything as my own, I am a liar. I brought nothing into this world. And I will take nothing out of it. I am poor and in need. And since I realized that, He has been faithful to provide.He spoke to me yesturday on the road while listening to Revelation.Revelation 2:2 I know your deeds, your hard work and your perseverance. I know that you cannot tolerate wicked men, that you have tested those who claim to be apostles but are not, and have found them false. 3 You have persevered and have endured hardships for my name, and have not grown weary. 4 Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken your first love. 5 Remember the height from which you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place. 6 But you have this in your favor: You hate the practices of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. 7 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.You see, at first I did all for His glory. I was just happy to know and see and revel in His wisdom. But somewhere between here and there, I lost sight of something...It's not about me... It's about Christ.So to those who wish to point out my sins, and attack me and my motivations... I bring that on myself, but I am not the issue.The ideas are not my own...The issue is simply this... What do you do with Christ?

What can the mind's eye see?Archer:Irrational conclusions cannot be true because they are by definition... irrational. Things said to be funny or sad (as you used to refute this), are not equivocal to being true or false. Emotions do not fall into rational catagories. That is the danger of thinking with your heart. Especially if the heart is corrupted and diseased and in need of mending. It desires that which is out of balance with the rational mind.The best we could say of a conclusion in question, is that we do not yet know whether it is rational or not. But if it is irrational as your statement presupposes, then it is false.All irrational conclusions are false. You can believe otherwise, but it is purely blind faith based on a feeling rather than logic and reason.Seeing faith occurs when what is believed is rational, and the heart confirms the feeling of rightness. That is the beauty of Christ. He opens our eyes and gives light, whereas others have faith in darkness. He heals the heart and puts it in line with the mind once again.If we insist on having our sin because our heart is bent, then it will not line up with the straight and narrow line of the minds eye. YOu will end up distorting the mind to match the distorted heart.Light vs darkness...Blind faith vs seeing faith...Romans 12:2 Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is--his good, pleasing and perfect will.

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Matthew 10:26 "So do not be afraid of them. There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known.

Ideally, the same thing you do when you love anyone. You do what needs to be done, wash, clean the house, make dinner and pay the bills without grumbling. You respect their wishes and act in a manner that brings respect to their name. You share your sentiments of love in private and amongst friends, lest your love be misconstrued as infatuation. You maintain reason, lest your love seem irrational, and with steadfast loyalty and joy, show to others that they are worthy of that love.

I didn't mean to ignore you btw, I was just beseiged with the onslaught.Your still one of my favorites always...

I at times grow impatient as well with the questions which arise in myself, and without hope of a productive dialog and working definitons, it is all too easy to take part in the 'onslaught'.I don't often express a strong opinion one way or another here, but pantheism is a tender spot for me. Often when I would be on my way to church my cousins would more or less stick up their noses and say they prefer to be in nature, and that nature is their church. Not that they necessarily gave up the idea of a personal God...but somehow I felt sad that they had 'claimed' nature and rejected me as one of those 'organized religion' people, hopelessly lost kneeling in dark aisles. Yet, I have always had a feeling for the world and the environment that went beyond mere respect, and I can even say I feel God in the world.When I spent time at the monastery in Vermont, with acres of virgin woods and rivers, I could wander the fields all day...then always with the dawn and with the dusk, the bell would ring and we would come together and chant the psalms. Being in church was almost an extension and a natural conclusion to the order of the day and nature. Out in the 'real' world, it seems like you have to pick one 'cause' or another; you are either too rigid or too natural. Catholic papers almost denounce environmental concerns like preservation and humane treatment of animals, all around me are cries for more 'awareness' and less of this praying for invisible help. While my own theology is one of a transcendant and personal God, I am disappointed at such strict delineation of purpose. Edited by anastasia, : No reason given.