Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
1 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 0/13 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Fresh Problem with the Ark
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 241 of 328 (122037)
07-05-2004 5:23 AM
Reply to: Message 237 by simple
07-05-2004 3:13 AM


I believe when someone asks Him into their heart that they will start to see things very differently.
I did, immediately. The problem, I realized, was that I was seeing what I wanted to see, not what was.
Me try atheism? A baby can't crawl back in the womb!
Ah, I see. Everyone else's beliefs are simply to be discarded at your request, but your own position is so sacrosanct that abandoning it can't even be countenanced.
I tried it your way. Why won't you play fair and try it mine?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by simple, posted 07-05-2004 3:13 AM simple has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 244 by simple, posted 07-05-2004 6:26 AM crashfrog has replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 242 of 328 (122039)
07-05-2004 5:35 AM
Reply to: Message 240 by simple
07-05-2004 5:13 AM


Re: Sagan's demons
oh dear. where to begin.
Also, I think you are saying he did not really believe in demons?
an astute observation. the demon to which he is refering is ignorance and people who hoodwink other people into believing stuff that just isn't true. he's implying that science is to these people what the excorcist was to the devil.
Makes me wonder what "God" he thought he believed in. The God of the bible believed in demons. Which god was Sagan into?
spinnoza's god. the god of naturalism, the laws of the universe. that's what deism is, it's not about god in the same sense you probably believe.
and actually, the god of the bible CREATED demons.
So, refuse to accept what God has revealed? What then would Sagan's bible be?
deism is not a religion in any sense of the word. deists do not usually believe the bible to be something god has revealed anymore than you may believe quran is. or the book of mormon. or the bhagavad-gita.
although, i was tempted to put in a joke about his bible being sir isaac newton's "principia"
Just make it up as you go? If it feels good, believe it? There are no demons or angels? Great! Any satanist, or witch, or atheist, or insane person then can say nature is showing him "god", and, since all that He revealed does not count, you can go ahead, and spout off any old thing that finds it's way to your tounge? No way to check this philosophy! Forget the bible, doesn't fit that nonsense! Only Sagan's opinion I guess would matter?
uh, last i checked, you were the one making up stuff. other events in the "flood year" of 190 days, like comets and smashing into the earth and whatnot? my bible sure doesn't say that. nor does my bible say anything god about being sneaky, and miraculously sorting all the fossils and strata to make it look like something happened that didn't.
the main tenet of deism that god's revelation is existance. they don't even believe in god in the same sense you do. they believe in a more unified, fundamental force that has nothing to do with everyday life, but rather produces natural laws to govern them.
how do your check you philosophy? on the bible? how do you check your bible? or, more importantly, do you? you can't just believe any old thing someone hands you says "god said this!" is actually the word of god. what about, say, the qabala, the quran, and the book of mormon? those are all the same god, even. they all say they're the word of god. how do you know which ones are right? are they all right? or just the old and new testaments? why both? why not the apocrypha? why not the books in the hebrew tanakh that don't appear in the english old testament?
tell me, is there a test to determine what is and what is not god's revealed word?
Did this "God" of Sagan's have anything to do with the big bang?
possibly. i don't know sagan's specific beliefs, and deism is a wide range of personal beliefs (no organization, so it varies from person to person). but sagan tended to be very anti-religious.
Did this "God" of Sagan's have anything to do with the big bang?
the book's about ufo's and pseudoscience and stuff. i dunno how it got brought up. does it even talk about religion?
This message has been edited by Arachnophilia, 07-05-2004 04:37 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by simple, posted 07-05-2004 5:13 AM simple has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 247 by simple, posted 07-05-2004 6:55 AM arachnophilia has replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 243 of 328 (122040)
07-05-2004 5:39 AM
Reply to: Message 237 by simple
07-05-2004 3:13 AM


Re: so far, no further
Really? I believe when someone asks Him into their heart that they will start to see things very differently. It may take a while, (unless you are just pulling my leg)-like for a baby to grow, but it is a certainty.
i've been a christian for about 8 years.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by simple, posted 07-05-2004 3:13 AM simple has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 245 by simple, posted 07-05-2004 6:27 AM arachnophilia has replied

simple 
Inactive Member


Message 244 of 328 (122051)
07-05-2004 6:26 AM
Reply to: Message 241 by crashfrog
07-05-2004 5:23 AM


fair and square
quote:
I did, immediately. The problem, I realized, was that I was seeing what I wanted to see, not what was.
Relax. If what you say is true, God will help you sort it all out. Give it a few years.
quote:
Everyone else's beliefs are simply to be discarded at your request
Beliefs like say, atheism? Hey nothing personal, really, I can't crawl back into a woman's womb, not just because I am not willing, but because it is impossible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by crashfrog, posted 07-05-2004 5:23 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 246 by crashfrog, posted 07-05-2004 6:35 AM simple has not replied
 Message 251 by arachnophilia, posted 07-05-2004 7:58 AM simple has not replied

simple 
Inactive Member


Message 245 of 328 (122052)
07-05-2004 6:27 AM
Reply to: Message 243 by arachnophilia
07-05-2004 5:39 AM


in the way for years
Not something I would brag about if I disbelieved the bible. But to each his own.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by arachnophilia, posted 07-05-2004 5:39 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 252 by arachnophilia, posted 07-05-2004 8:00 AM simple has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 246 of 328 (122053)
07-05-2004 6:35 AM
Reply to: Message 244 by simple
07-05-2004 6:26 AM


Hey nothing personal, really, I can't crawl back into a woman's womb, not just because I am not willing, but because it is impossible.
But it's possible for everyone but you to turn your back on their beliefs?
It can't be impossible. After all, most atheists were once Christians. If it's "impossible", why do so many Christians do it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by simple, posted 07-05-2004 6:26 AM simple has not replied

simple 
Inactive Member


Message 247 of 328 (122057)
07-05-2004 6:55 AM
Reply to: Message 242 by arachnophilia
07-05-2004 5:35 AM


Re: Sagan's demons
quote:
the demon to which he is refering is ignorance and people who hoodwink other people into believing stuff that just isn't true. he's implying that science is to these people what the excorcist was to the devil.
Diobolically clever, I must admit. I guess then he would not really believe in the excorcist or the devil either? My question though remains, why would he go on to, as you yourself say, "hoodwink other people into believing stuff that just isn't true"?
quote:
spinnoza's god. the god of naturalism, the laws of the universe. that's what deism is
(Spinoza, Benedict De | Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy)
"Spinoza is best known for his Ethics, a monumental work that presents an ethical vision unfolding out of a monistic metaphysics in which God and Nature are identified. God is no longer the transcendent creator of the universe "
So our creator, then according to Sagan, and Spinoza's spin, is out. Gee, who could argue with that?
quote:
and actually, the god of the bible CREATED demons.
OK, so let's try and get this straight, are you now breaking with Sagan, and saying you personally believe in demons?
quote:
i was tempted to put in a joke about his bible being sir isaac newton's "principia"
Well thank goodness you didn't yeild to temptation.
quote:
my bible sure doesn't say that
So now the bible, as well as demons are something you respect?
quote:
The main tenet of deism that god's revelation is existance. they don't even believe in god in the same sense you do. they believe in a more unified, fundamental force that has nothing to do with everyday life
OK so this silly stuff (that "they" believe) has nothing to do with everyday life, fine.
quote:
but sagan tended to be very anti-religious.
So, I guess this gives him credibility?
quote:
The book's about ufo's and pseudoscience and stuff. i dunno how it got brought up. does it even talk about religion?
Since you brought it up, I'll have to leave that for you to answer. I don't know, nor care what that virtual pagan thought!
As far as religion goes, Jesus was killed by the religious types. So I hope you don't think I have a soft spot for some loveless ceremonialism!?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by arachnophilia, posted 07-05-2004 5:35 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 250 by arachnophilia, posted 07-05-2004 7:34 AM simple has not replied
 Message 256 by RAZD, posted 07-05-2004 3:56 PM simple has not replied

CK
Member (Idle past 4128 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 248 of 328 (122058)
07-05-2004 6:56 AM


I grown up a christian but as I got older I got interested in science - the only way I could make science fit my beliefs was to take no notice of large elements of it, that seemed to be dishonest to me.
Maybe there is a god, maybe there is not - but the bible is clearly just a book of stories.

Replies to this message:
 Message 249 by simple, posted 07-05-2004 7:07 AM CK has not replied
 Message 254 by RAZD, posted 07-05-2004 3:53 PM CK has not replied

simple 
Inactive Member


Message 249 of 328 (122061)
07-05-2004 7:07 AM
Reply to: Message 248 by CK
07-05-2004 6:56 AM


fits like a glove
Making science fit your beliefs. Nice ring to it! I do ok at that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by CK, posted 07-05-2004 6:56 AM CK has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 255 by RAZD, posted 07-05-2004 3:55 PM simple has not replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 250 of 328 (122065)
07-05-2004 7:34 AM
Reply to: Message 247 by simple
07-05-2004 6:55 AM


Re: Sagan's demons
Diobolically clever, I must admit. I guess then he would not really believe in the excorcist or the devil either? My question though remains, why would he go on to, as you yourself say, "hoodwink other people into believing stuff that just isn't true"?
because that's the point of the book. it's about things not scientifically sound. seriously, it's a metaphor. really.
(and uhh, the exorcist is based on a true story, whether or not you believe in the devil)
OK, so let's try and get this straight, are you now breaking with Sagan, and saying you personally believe in demons?
it was a side note. you said the god of the bible believed in demons. that's a silly phrasing. the god of the bible created demons.
Well thank goodness you didn't yeild to temptation.
you have no sense of humor, do you?
So now the bible, as well as demons are something you respect?
who said i respected or even believed in demons?
OK so this silly stuff (that "they" believe) has nothing to do with everyday life, fine.
most deists do not believe that a god in any form interferes with everyday life, no.
So, I guess this gives him credibility?
no. contrary to popular belief, religious beliefs mean didly-squat as far as credibility goes. it's not my fault that a lot of so-called christians are liars and charlatans. carl sagan gets his credibility from his degrees, education, career, and publish works.
Since you brought it up, I'll have to leave that for you to answer. I don't know, nor care what that virtual pagan thought!
actually, no, i didn't bring it up. and he wasn't a pagan.
As far as religion goes, Jesus was killed by the religious types. So I hope you don't think I have a soft spot for some loveless ceremonialism!?
what on earth are you talking about?
are we randomly playing the "pin the blame on the jesus-killers" game again? i have news for you, without someone doing it, there'd be no savior, now, would there?
also, for the record, jesus was killed by the romans.
This message has been edited by Arachnophilia, 07-05-2004 06:35 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 247 by simple, posted 07-05-2004 6:55 AM simple has not replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 251 of 328 (122068)
07-05-2004 7:58 AM
Reply to: Message 244 by simple
07-05-2004 6:26 AM


Re: fair and square
Relax. If what you say is true, God will help you sort it all out. Give it a few years
i suggest you give it a few years. actually, 4 years. in those four years, go to college. think about things a little. read some different opinions on readings and interpretations of the bible.
i know you're so old and wise and god talks to you personally and tells you everything you'll ever need to know... but uhh, go learn some things.
Beliefs like say, atheism? Hey nothing personal, really, I can't crawl back into a woman's womb, not just because I am not willing, but because it is impossible.
having been an militant athiest most of my life, this is the first bit i always tried to break down. athiest is NOT a belief -- it is a LACK of belief. and often times, athiests tend to be more intellectually, socially, philosophically, and even more religiously advanced than fundamental christians.
i had a friend who was always mad because she thought i treated her like a child religiously. a year later, she was telling me how she was starting to look at all the other members of her church as children.
but then, hey, out of the mouths of children, right?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by simple, posted 07-05-2004 6:26 AM simple has not replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 252 of 328 (122069)
07-05-2004 8:00 AM
Reply to: Message 245 by simple
07-05-2004 6:27 AM


Re: in the way for years
Not something I would brag about if I disbelieved the bible. But to each his own.
being a christian you mean?
christian means follower of christ. i try to follow his teachings, and even go a step further, and believe in him! that makes me a christian.
just because i don't agree with you that the bible is 100% the inerrant, inspired, and infallible word of god doesn't mean i'm a heathen and going to hell.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by simple, posted 07-05-2004 6:27 AM simple has not replied

Coragyps
Member (Idle past 735 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 253 of 328 (122122)
07-05-2004 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 231 by simple
07-05-2004 2:16 AM


Re: flipped out
Well, why not try it anyhow, just in case there may be something to it?
This is my nomination for "most inane post of the new century."
Arkathon, why don't you try belief in each and every one of the other 8,743 gods people have dreamed up 'just in case?' Don't forget the Invisible Pink Unicorn......

This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by simple, posted 07-05-2004 2:16 AM simple has not replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 254 of 328 (122162)
07-05-2004 3:53 PM
Reply to: Message 248 by CK
07-05-2004 6:56 AM


nonsense quotient
maonarch writes:
the only way I could make science fit my beliefs was to take no notice of large elements of it, that seemed to be dishonest to me.
you can take this discussion to the {Ideas of Reality} topic.
EvC Forum: Ideas of Reality

This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by CK, posted 07-05-2004 6:56 AM CK has not replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 255 of 328 (122164)
07-05-2004 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 249 by simple
07-05-2004 7:07 AM


Re: fits like OJ's glove
that you think you do shows a high degree of self delusion.
you too might like to take this to {Ideas of Reality} topic at
EvC Forum: Ideas of Reality

This message is a reply to:
 Message 249 by simple, posted 07-05-2004 7:07 AM simple has not replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024