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Author Topic:   The Evolution of God (Before Genesis 1:1)
nwr
Member
Posts: 5971
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 46 of 73 (445461)
01-02-2008 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by NOT JULIUS
01-02-2008 2:31 PM


That appears to me to be awesome energy force.

If there had been instruments present to measure energy, the chances are that those instruments would not have registered anything at all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by NOT JULIUS, posted 01-02-2008 2:31 PM NOT JULIUS has replied

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NOT JULIUS
Member (Idle past 3710 days)
Posts: 219
From: Rome
Joined: 11-29-2006


Message 47 of 73 (445465)
01-02-2008 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by jar
01-02-2008 2:32 PM


Re: the avatar
quote:
And that is related to the topic in what way? The point is, if you knew what my avatar was you would know I do not hate God.

Just kidding. My turn to laugh :=)

quote:
That is the only possible conclusion from your assertions.

Let me try a syllogism.
P1: One who is natural can not know one who is super-natural unless the latter choose to reveal himself to the former.

P2: Super-natural being choose to reveal himself to natural being through science.

Conclusion: Therefore, natural being can know super-natural being through science.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by jar, posted 01-02-2008 2:32 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 33895
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 48 of 73 (445467)
01-02-2008 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by NOT JULIUS
01-02-2008 3:03 PM


Re: the avatar
nonsense.


Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!

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sidelined
Member (Idle past 5144 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 49 of 73 (445468)
01-02-2008 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by NOT JULIUS
01-02-2008 3:03 PM


Re: the avatar
Great J

Conclusion: Therefore, natural being can know super-natural being through science.

The only problem arising is that the natural being cannot know that the other is actually supernatural if the only way the supernatural can communicate is through the natural


This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by NOT JULIUS, posted 01-02-2008 3:03 PM NOT JULIUS has replied

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NOT JULIUS
Member (Idle past 3710 days)
Posts: 219
From: Rome
Joined: 11-29-2006


Message 50 of 73 (445469)
01-02-2008 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by nwr
01-02-2008 3:01 PM


quote:
If there had been instruments present to measure energy, the chances are that those instruments would not have registered anything at all.

Too bad the anemometer was not yet invented at that time. But what about the witnesses who had opposing views of the power given to them? If you will recall, the disciples were heckled as drunk with wine. On the other hand, 120 experienced that power. No one disputed though that strong gust of wind (the manifestation of the spirit, the energy force) that filled the house.


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sidelined
Member (Idle past 5144 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 51 of 73 (445470)
01-02-2008 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by NOT JULIUS
01-02-2008 3:11 PM


Great J

No one disputed though that strong gust of wind (the manifestation of the spirit, the energy force) that filled the house.

Well we have developed new understanding for the cause of wind in recent centuries but perhaps you have been unable to keep up.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by NOT JULIUS, posted 01-02-2008 3:11 PM NOT JULIUS has replied

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NOT JULIUS
Member (Idle past 3710 days)
Posts: 219
From: Rome
Joined: 11-29-2006


Message 52 of 73 (445471)
01-02-2008 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by sidelined
01-02-2008 3:09 PM


Re: forget J's avatar
Sidelined,
quote:
The only problem arising is that the natural being cannot know that the other is actually supernatural if the only way the supernatural can communicate is through the natural.

I don't quite get your point. Can you explain further? May be my brain went on sleep mode after looking at Jar's avatar. :=)


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NOT JULIUS
Member (Idle past 3710 days)
Posts: 219
From: Rome
Joined: 11-29-2006


Message 53 of 73 (445482)
01-02-2008 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by sidelined
01-02-2008 3:16 PM


quote:
Well we have developed new understanding for the cause of wind in recent centuries but perhaps you have been unable to keep up.

I believe the account in Acts 2:1-13 (I'm digging into my sandwich no bible on hand ) says that a strong wind came from heaven and filled the house, AND tounges of fire descended on each of the disciples. So, when the sound ( of that strong wind)occured the multitude came together AND were bewildered because they each heard their own language being spoken by the disciples. Unable, to explain the phenomenon some accused them of being drunk.

The point?
a) holy spirit is energy--all sorts of energy, from fire, from wind, etc. Not only ordinary energy but one that can impart intelligence as in ability to instanteously speak foreign tounges.

b) God is spirit or energy--not flesh and blood. He is not only made up energy ( a.k.a. spirit) but he can use that energy anyway he wants.

c) that event was witnessed by opposing parties, and not one of them disputed the phenomena.

d)unable to explain the whole phenomena, one party accused the other of being drunk.

Now, do they also have instruments that measure almost simultaneously the occurence of strong wind, AND the tounges of fire, AND the ability to instantaneously speak foreign language?


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ringo
Member
Posts: 19526
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 54 of 73 (445531)
01-02-2008 6:57 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by NOT JULIUS
01-02-2008 3:55 PM


Great J writes:

... a strong wind came from heaven and filled the house...

There was no wind. It was a sound like wind:

quote:
Act 2:2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.

... AND tounges of fire descended on each of the disciples.

There was no fire. There were tongues like fire:

quote:
Act 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

The mundane images of wind and fire were used to describe an unearthly, unknown phenomenon.

a) holy spirit is energy--all sorts of energy, from fire, from wind, etc.

Much as you have tried to drag the Holy Spirit down to the level of measurable energy, that's not what the Bible says.

Not only ordinary energy but one that can impart intelligence as in ability to instanteously speak foreign tounges.

There's no indication that there was any "intelligence" imparted. The story suggests that the Spirit spoke through the disciples, not that it "taught" them different languages. Are you familiar with the speaking-in-tongues phenomenon at all? Typically, the speaker doesn't know what he/she is saying and retains no knowledge of the "language".

c) that event was witnessed by opposing parties, and not one of them disputed the phenomena.

d)unable to explain the whole phenomena, one party accused the other of being drunk.

Those two statements are contradictory. The ones who suspected drunkenness certainly were disputing the "phenomenon".


“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by NOT JULIUS, posted 01-02-2008 3:55 PM NOT JULIUS has replied

Replies to this message:
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NOT JULIUS
Member (Idle past 3710 days)
Posts: 219
From: Rome
Joined: 11-29-2006


Message 55 of 73 (445534)
01-02-2008 7:58 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by ringo
01-02-2008 6:57 PM


Hi Ringo,
I follow this rule in interpretation: "plain words, plain meaning, unless resulting interpretation results in absurdity or unreasonableness"

you said:

quote:
There was no wind. It was a sound LIKE (capitalization mine) wind.

However the passage you quoted says,
quote:
Act 2:2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.

I think the plain meaning--no need of reconstruction--is there was a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind and it filled all the house. Sounds an awesome energy force to me.

You said:

quote:
Much as you have tried to drag the Holy Spirit down to the level of measurable energy

That is how you understood my statements. But, what I said was spirit=energy. I cited Genesis 1:1,Isaiah 40:26, Acts 2:1-13 BTE, as my source. I never said measurable. Did I?

you said:

quote:
Are you familiar with the speaking-in-tongues phenomenon at all?

My familiarity is of no value. What is important is what the account said. I guess it said that when the holy spirit--that powerful energy /force--from God descended upon the disciples, they talked and their listeners were able to discern that they ( the disciples) were talking in their ( the listeners') tongues or langguage. Plain meaning, right ?

you said:

quote:
Those two statements are contradictory. The ones who suspected drunkenness certainly were disputing the "phenomenon"

I believe there was no contradiction. Here is why.
1. Both parties did not dispute the OCCURENCE of the phenomena of the strong wind and the sudden ability of the disciples to speak foreign tongues.
2. What they could not explain /or agree was the CAUSE(s) of these phenomena.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Edited by Great J, : No reason given.

Edited by Great J, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by ringo, posted 01-02-2008 6:57 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member
Posts: 19526
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 56 of 73 (445537)
01-02-2008 9:02 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by NOT JULIUS
01-02-2008 7:58 PM


Great J writes:

I think the plain meaning--no need of reconstruction--is there was a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind and it filled all the house.

That's right, a sound like a wind, not an actual wind.

Sounds an awesome energy force to me.

Awesome, probably, but an "energy force", no. Both force and energy (not the same, by the way) can be detected and measured. That would make it far less awesome.

There is nothing in the text to suggest that it there was any detectable "energy". You're making that part up.

But, what I said was spirit=energy. [...] I never said measurable. Did I?

Energy is measurable.

I cited Genesis 1:1,Isaiah 40:26, Acts 2:1-13 BTE, as my source.

Nothing in Genesis 1:1-2 backs you up:

quote:
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Neither does Isaiah:

quote:
Isa 40:26 Lift up your eyes on high, and behold who hath created these things, that bringeth out their host by number: he calleth them all by names by the greatness of his might, for that he is strong in power; not one faileth.

Neither does Acts, as I have already shown.

There is nothing in any of those passages to suggest that spirit = energy.

quote:
Are you familiar with the speaking-in-tongues phenomenon at all?

My familiarity is of no value.

So I guess that's a "no". The reason I asked was because you claimed that there was some kind of "intelligence" imparted. That's wrong. Speaking in tongues, as in Acts, is more like the Holy Spirit using a person as a puppet. There's no intelligence involved.

1. Both parties did not dispute the OCCURENCE of the phenomena of the strong wind and the sudden ability of the disciples to speak foreign tongues.

That's not what it says, though:

quote:
Act 2:12 And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?
Act 2:13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.

The "others" mocked the phenomenon. They wouldn't have mocked if they had heard it themselves, would they? So apparently they didn't believe that the others had heard anything either.

2. What they could not explain /or agree was the CAUSE(s) of these phenomena.

But they did explain it - as drunkenness.

It isn't particularly important to the discussion. It's just an illustration of how you see what you want to see in the text instead of what's really there.


“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by NOT JULIUS, posted 01-02-2008 7:58 PM NOT JULIUS has replied

Replies to this message:
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NOT JULIUS
Member (Idle past 3710 days)
Posts: 219
From: Rome
Joined: 11-29-2006


Message 57 of 73 (445704)
01-03-2008 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by ringo
01-02-2008 9:02 PM


quote:
Awesome, probably, but an "energy force", no. Both force and energy (not the same, by the way) can be detected and measured. That would make it far less awesome. There is nothing in the text to suggest that it there was any detectable "energy". You're making that part up

Yes, or no please. If a non-moving thing like a house, a chair, etc, moves was there a force or energy applied or none? Follow up question: why did the writer write rushing mighty wind and filled the house if there was no movement in that house at all?

quote:
Nothing in Genesis 1:1-2 backs you up:Neither does Isaiah:Neither does Acts, as I have already shown.

Perhaps you did not check my original post. My reference on Genesis 1:1-2 was BTE where it is specifically mentioned that spirit of God=Power of God. BTW, the Hebrew word "Ruach" is translated "spirit" in English. And Bible translators agree that spirit = power. Power = energy force. Of course, you can not find the word "energy" in these bible passages because remember it was written long time ago, when the word "energy" was not yet known.If the bible writer(s) would have used "energy" the reader would say DUH? So, they had to use language that was understandable to them at that time: power=energy.

As regards Acts 2:1-3, it was just a fulfillment of Jesus command to his disciples, after he was resurrected. He said 'go to the city (Jerusalem) and wait for the POWER on high to be given to you'. ( Luke 24:49, BTE).

As regards, Isaiah 40:26, your quoted text mentions "his might", "he is strong in POWER". Write that as 'he has strong ENERGY, and you will have rabid bible critics howling: 'see Isaiah was written in the 40's ! or about the time the word "energy" came to being.

Oh by the way, do the stars release power ( energy) or not? If yes, where did this come from according to Isaiah 40:26?

quote:
The reason I asked was because you claimed that there was some kind of "intelligence" imparted. That's wrong. Speaking in tongues, as in Acts, is more like the Holy Spirit using a person as a puppet. There's no intelligence involved.

Are you saying that speaking in foreign tongue does not require intelligence?


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 Message 56 by ringo, posted 01-02-2008 9:02 PM ringo has replied

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 Message 58 by ringo, posted 01-03-2008 1:53 PM NOT JULIUS has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19526
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 58 of 73 (445711)
01-03-2008 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by NOT JULIUS
01-03-2008 1:21 PM


Great J writes:

If a non-moving thing like a house, a chair, etc, moves was there a force or energy applied or none?

If an object moves, we look for a natural force.

why did the writer write rushing mighty wind and filled the house if there was no movement in that house at all?

The writer wrote that there was a sound and that the sound was like a wind. There is simply nothing in the text to suggest that there was any movement in the house.

Perhaps you did not check my original post. My reference on Genesis 1:1-2 was BTE where it is specifically mentioned that spirit of God=Power of God.

First, your reference is in Message 18, not the OP.

Second, a footnote is just somebody's opinion. It has no bearing on the meaning of the text.

Third, it has already been explained to you that the "power of God" doesn't mean power in the sense that it's used in physics.

And Bible translators agree that spirit = power.

You haven't shown that. You've shown the footnote-opinion of one translator and you've misunderstood what "power" means in the literary sense as opposed to what "power" means in the scientific sense.

Of course, you can not find the word "energy" in these bible passages because remember it was written long time ago, when the word "energy" was not yet known.

Or.. they didn't say "energy" because they didn't mean "energy".

Oh by the way, do the stars release power ( energy) or not?

I don't think you'll find anywhere where the Bible says they do.

Are you saying that speaking in foreign tongue does not require intelligence?

Yes. That's the whole point. It's the Holy Spirit speaking, not the ventriloquist's dummy.

Remember Balaam's ass?

quote:
Num 22:28 And the LORD opened the mouth of the ass, and she said unto Balaam, What have I done unto thee, that thou hast smitten me these three times?
Num 22:29 And Balaam said unto the ass, Because thou hast mocked me: I would there were a sword in mine hand, for now would I kill thee.
Num 22:30 And the ass said unto Balaam, Am not I thine ass, upon which thou hast ridden ever since I was thine unto this day? was I ever wont to do so unto thee? And he said, Nay.

If an ass can speak in tongues, how much intelligence is required?


“Faith moves mountains, but only knowledge moves them to the right place” -- Joseph Goebbels

This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member
Posts: 33895
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 59 of 73 (445713)
01-03-2008 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by ringo
01-03-2008 1:53 PM


Great winds.
Great winds do small flames blow out, unless it is great winds caused by too many baked beans in which case small flames can create great fire balls when encountering said winds.


Immigration has been a problem Since 1607!

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NOT JULIUS
Member (Idle past 3710 days)
Posts: 219
From: Rome
Joined: 11-29-2006


Message 60 of 73 (445716)
01-03-2008 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by ringo
01-03-2008 1:53 PM


Ringo,
quote:
If an object moves, we look for a natural force.

A FORCE nonetheless.

quote:
There is simply nothing in the text to suggest that there was any movement in the house.

A rushing mighty wind that filled the house, and no movement at all. Can you believe that?

quote:
Second, a footnote is just somebody's opinion. It has no bearing on the meaning of the text. Third, it has already been explained to you that the "power of God" doesn't mean power in the sense that it's used in physics.You haven't shown that. You've shown the footnote-opinion of one translator and you've misunderstood what "power" means in the literary sense as opposed to what "power" means in the scientific sense.

Or, the footnote is an aid to undertanding the particular word. And, that somebody's opinion by the way, is just from the masters of their own field--the bible scholars/ translators. If you use the theasaurus on your word document, and type the word "POWER" it will give you several synonyms among which are: "FORCE", and "ENERGY". The Bible writers, by the way, did not study physics. They observed that in their physical world if something moves it must have been caused by Power. And, the word "power" means "ENERGY" or "FORCE" in our modern language. Again, check a respectable thesaurus.

quote:
Yes. That's the whole point. It's the Holy Spirit speaking, not the ventriloquist's dummy.Remember Balaam's ass?

I thought man has free will, the right to say yes or no. And, I really thought that man's intelligence is different from an ass. If you don't agree, then we'll never be on the same page.

Edited by Great J, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by ringo, posted 01-03-2008 1:53 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
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