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Author Topic:   What is the mechanism that prevents microevolution to become macroevolution?
jar
Member (Idle past 414 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 8 of 301 (343598)
08-26-2006 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Faith
08-26-2006 12:57 PM


Yes, the goalposts are high.
This makes for extremely high goalposts considering that evolution was considered science before anyone had a clue about DNA or what a mutation was.
Yes, the goalposts are high. Before Biblical Creationism or ID or YEC can be taken seriously they will have to produce models that explain ALL of the observations better than any current or reviesd models.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Faith, posted 08-26-2006 12:57 PM Faith has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 414 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 13 of 301 (343651)
08-26-2006 3:02 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Faith
08-26-2006 2:36 PM


Faith makes a great point.
A bottleneck is simply an extreme type of "evolutionary process" that drastically brought about what is normally a much more gradual kind of change over many more speciation events.
Great point Faith.
If the flood had happened, this is the kind of thing you should be able to point to as support for your model.
If the flood happened we should see a genetic bottleneck in all living species where all of the indicators point to an event that happened about 4500 years ago. This would be great supporting evidence for there having been a flood (but of course no support for any theological implications). It would also be scale independent since as long as the same scale is used, every critter should show the same indicators at about the same period.
If that isn't seen, then we can toss the idea of a flood on the trashheap of great ideas that just turned out to be wrong.
If you ever want ID or YEC or Biblical Creationism to be considered as science you must be prepared to toss away your conclusions once they are shown to be wrong.
You ready to do that Faith?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Faith, posted 08-26-2006 2:36 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by Faith, posted 08-26-2006 3:08 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 414 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 15 of 301 (343659)
08-26-2006 3:19 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Faith
08-26-2006 3:08 PM


Re: Faith makes a great point.
I figure that whatever it is in the genome you expect to see as evidence of a bottleneck of the magnitude of the Flood is simply misinterpreted. I'd be looking at all that junk DNA myself.
That's fine Faith. If and when some ID or YEC or Biblical Creationist can show such evidence, it will be time to dust off the old flood and put it on the shelf. Once they also place the model on the table that explains the geological, radiometric, archeological, sociological data it might be worth even considering that such a flood might have happened.
But three things to remember Faith.
  1. The model must explain ALL the evidence better than any existing model or any revision of any esiting model or any competing model.
  2. the model must be backed up by evidence which can be independantly confirmed.
  3. Even if you could show that there was a world-wide flood and the resulting bottleneck, it provides NO support for the theological nature of the event.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Faith, posted 08-26-2006 3:08 PM Faith has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 414 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 29 of 301 (344860)
08-29-2006 7:22 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by RAZD
08-29-2006 7:15 PM


Re: bottlenecks
The important thing is we don't see the same bottleneck across ALL species at the same time. If there had been a Flood as described in the Bible there would be this monstrous flashing neon sign in the genetic record that would be the first thing ever geneticist in the world saw. It would be out there standing like a giant among the signatures waving at all that pass, "Notice ME!"

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by RAZD, posted 08-29-2006 7:15 PM RAZD has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 414 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 77 of 301 (345733)
09-01-2006 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by Quetzal
09-01-2006 12:56 PM


On predictions and tests.
It seems to me that we have a fairly simple and elegant way to test Faith's hypothesis.
If the world is young, and if there was some Fall, and if Genetic diversity has been decreasing, then we should be able to see remarkable changes over even short periods of time.
Considering humans initially.
If we look at the DNA from a human from say 5000 years ago, and one from say 4000 years ago, we should see an enormous difference. If we look then at one from 3000 years ago, and 2000 years ago and 1000 years ago and today we should see an enormous difference at each step, a decrease in the size of the genome.
This should hold true across all species sampled.
If we look back a little further, say before the Fall or before Creation, we should see even bigger differences.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Quetzal, posted 09-01-2006 12:56 PM Quetzal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Quetzal, posted 09-01-2006 1:42 PM jar has not replied
 Message 94 by Faith, posted 09-02-2006 12:08 AM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 414 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 95 of 301 (345917)
09-02-2006 12:18 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by Faith
09-02-2006 12:08 AM


Re: On predictions and tests.
Well as Quetzal pointed out in Message 79 it has been done. In his words:
Well, a lot of that's been done. The Ensatina article shows quite clearly increasing divergeance between the two populations. If there's some kind of decrease in the genetics as the "strong claim" version of Faith and MJ's idea holds true (that genomes are reduced during speciation), then the genetics of the two salamander populations should show it. They don't. In fact, increased diversity is the case as different alleles exist in both populations with no apparent loss in genome size (MJ's claim), and insufficient gene flow/mixing for recombination to account for the novelty (Faith's claim).
This isn't the only example, either. See, for instance, Jiggins CD, Mallet J, 2000, "Bimodal Hybrid Zones and Evolution", Trends in Ecology and Evolution, 15:250-255 (available cached here. Also see Via S, 2002, "The Ecological Genetics of Speciation", Am Nat 159:51-57 (I don't know if it's on-line somewhere). Anyway, there's a bunch of research out there. The entire line of argument is bogus.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Faith, posted 09-02-2006 12:08 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by Faith, posted 09-02-2006 12:58 AM jar has not replied
 Message 106 by crashfrog, posted 09-02-2006 1:08 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 414 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 107 of 301 (346041)
09-02-2006 1:43 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by crashfrog
09-02-2006 1:08 PM


Re: On predictions and tests.
IMHO that is wrong because it is just a snapshot at one moment of a dynamic process. The availability of a alleles is not something set in stone but rather something that changes dynamically and constantly. While a division might reduce the population to 19 alleles, over time new ones will occur. This is particularly true in cases where a species has multiple copies of the same gene, for example MGC8902. Having multiple copies of the same gene allows critters to continue whatever the function of that gene might be while other copies might get modified to bring about some new trait.
Please remember that you are just talking to a dumb layman here so it might be better to be asking folk like Quetzal or others than me, but here is my take for what it is worth.
One of the big things that seems to come up quite often is the perceived difference between man and our closest cousins, the other primates.
At some time in the distant past there was a split similar to what you describe. It looks like one population got a whole bunch of copies of MGC8902 and very likely did not get a copy of some other gene so there was very likely a temporary reduction in diversity. However, over time, there was an increase in diversity as some of those copies of MGC8902 were available to be modified to perform new functions.
Like I said, it would probably better for you to be asking folk like Quetzal or even your wife than someone like me.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by crashfrog, posted 09-02-2006 1:08 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by crashfrog, posted 09-02-2006 7:59 PM jar has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 414 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 120 of 301 (346127)
09-02-2006 8:57 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by crashfrog
09-02-2006 7:59 PM


Re: On predictions and tests.
But assuming there's an indentifiable instant of speciation, it doesn't seem unreasonable to assert that genetic diversity is equal or lower in each subpopulation than in the whole population.
But the condition afterward is neither fixed nor permanent. Life goes on. Yesterday I had $40.00 in my pocket, today I have $20.00, tomorrow I may well have $40.00 again.
To say that there is a decrease in either genes or alleles related to some separation is simply trying to describe one stop on the trip as the whole journey.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by crashfrog, posted 09-02-2006 7:59 PM crashfrog has not replied

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