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Author Topic:   Why prefer the Biblical creation account over those of other religions?
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 136 of 146 (633123)
09-12-2011 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by hooah212002
09-12-2011 3:17 PM


Re: Judeo/Christian Creation Stories
Well, this has nothing to do with the topic but yes, original sin as taught in much of Christianity is simply bullshit without a real biblical foundation based on taking a couple quotes out of context.

Be glad to discuss it but not in this thread.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by hooah212002, posted 09-12-2011 3:17 PM hooah212002 has acknowledged this reply

  
Dr Adequate
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Posts: 16085
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 10.0


(1)
Message 137 of 146 (633124)
09-12-2011 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by hooah212002
09-12-2011 3:17 PM


Re: Judeo/Christian Creation Stories
Erm...what? Are you saying that sin is not the primary reason jesus came to earth? Are you saying that sin was not borne out of eve being tricked by a talking snake? By her eating an apple? I know some of you get really in depth with the bible, but some of the basic tenets of xianity are...wel, basic. That being one of them. Unless you are thinking of a different religion? Or have I been sorely misinformed?

From a soteriological point of view, the important thing would be that we are sinful and in need of a redeemer; it doesn't matter if the bit with the fruit and the snake is a metaphor or even just a goddamn lie.

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by hooah212002, posted 09-12-2011 3:17 PM hooah212002 has acknowledged this reply

  
DubyaDeeEm
Junior Member (Idle past 2649 days)
Posts: 13
Joined: 09-09-2011


Message 138 of 146 (634228)
09-20-2011 2:54 AM
Reply to: Message 121 by jar
09-11-2011 8:04 PM


Re: some basics
Some more basics

You can make such claims but anyone that honestly reads the stories understands that there are two different tales, and that they are factually wrong.

Again, wrong on both counts.

The fact that you use the words as being synonymous simply shows a lack of education. That's a problem and can be cured.

I do know the meaning and proper usage of the word, thank you.

It's likely that you don't even know that there is no such thing as "The Bible", not even one list of what books should be included in a Bible.

Your speculations on what I do and don't know are just that, speculations, and like your statements above, just as incorrect.

And guess what, there are many sacred Christian writings that are not included in any of the different Canons.

That's a matter of semantics. It depends on how you define sacred and how you define Christian. There are plenty of groups that call themselves Christian, that doesn't make them Christian anymore than nonviolent Muslims calling themselves Muslims makes them genuine followers of the teaching of Islam (which requires violence of any true follower). I have a former brother-in-law who has nothing to do with Islam but calls himself a Muslim because that's what he was brought up in in Iran. Likewise there are plenty of people who think that they are Christians because they were born in the USA. How you define things makes all the difference.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by jar, posted 09-11-2011 8:04 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by jar, posted 09-20-2011 9:49 AM DubyaDeeEm has not yet responded
 Message 146 by Theodoric, posted 09-20-2011 9:59 AM DubyaDeeEm has not yet responded

    
DubyaDeeEm
Junior Member (Idle past 2649 days)
Posts: 13
Joined: 09-09-2011


Message 139 of 146 (634229)
09-20-2011 2:57 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by Dr Adequate
09-12-2011 12:07 AM


Re: Mispoke and recant my comments
And gives a different order of creation.

Not really. The order isn't being given. It's already understood the exact order, given in painstaking detail, has already been imparted to the reader. In chapter 2 he goes back and forth and clearly order isn't what is being communicated, and isn't meant to be.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-12-2011 12:07 AM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-20-2011 3:08 AM DubyaDeeEm has responded

    
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16085
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 140 of 146 (634232)
09-20-2011 3:08 AM
Reply to: Message 139 by DubyaDeeEm
09-20-2011 2:57 AM


Genesis 2
Not really. The order isn't being given. It's already understood the exact order, given in painstaking detail, has already been imparted to the reader. In chapter 2 he goes back and forth and clearly order isn't what is being communicated, and isn't meant to be.

But it does give an order. It's quite explicit about doing so:

Now no shrub had yet appeared on the earth and no plant had yet sprung up, for the LORD God had not sent rain on the earth and there was no one to work the ground, but streams came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground. Then the LORD God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

This isn't exactly obscure, is it?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by DubyaDeeEm, posted 09-20-2011 2:57 AM DubyaDeeEm has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by DubyaDeeEm, posted 09-20-2011 3:38 AM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

  
DubyaDeeEm
Junior Member (Idle past 2649 days)
Posts: 13
Joined: 09-09-2011


Message 141 of 146 (634234)
09-20-2011 3:21 AM
Reply to: Message 124 by purpledawn
09-12-2011 5:48 AM


Re: Sky Woman vs Adam and Eve
No he didn't.

The text says otherwise.

That isn't deeming that the first creation story happened as written. He's using a foundational myth to make a religious point.

Your point might have some merit if you weren't freely reading into it what you believe, but you clearly are. The text speaks plainly. Nothing needs to be added to understand it properly.

In my creation story people were also around in the beginning.

Then clearly your creation story is closer to the truth than the Darwinian creation story. At least in that respect (and likely in all respects, but that isn't very hard to do - be more correct than Darwinism).

No it means he wrote a story as God intended. Just like Jesus used parables.

Show me where God says that His detailed narrative account in Genesis is not factual and didn't physically happen exactly as Genesis 1 says. You are reading in what you feel like and making things up. That's all well and good, as long as you realize it's your opinion, and not necessarily fact.

Show me how the Biblical creation stories are true and the Iroquois creation story is not.

The Bible's creation account fits perfectly with everything we know and see. The Bible is repeatedly vindicated by archeology. The Iroquois creation story (apparently there are various ones) seemingly begins with their land originally having been on the back of a huge turtle (this sounds very similar to Mohammed's explanation [in the Quran] of what "holds up the earth" (elephants standing on turtles' backs, etc)). It would be pretty hard to verify that North America was once on the back of a turtle (even if it were true).

I can't prove to you that the Bible is true or that it's creation account is true. I can show you where to look, but that is up to you. No one can prove or disprove God or the Bible (and all those claiming to have disproven it really are greatly given to exaggeration). I can give you plenty of great reasons to believe it, but belief is a choice, an act of the will. And it also is given by God.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by purpledawn, posted 09-12-2011 5:48 AM purpledawn has responded

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DubyaDeeEm
Junior Member (Idle past 2649 days)
Posts: 13
Joined: 09-09-2011


Message 142 of 146 (634236)
09-20-2011 3:38 AM
Reply to: Message 140 by Dr Adequate
09-20-2011 3:08 AM


Re: Genesis 2
But it does give an order

Here's how the New King James Bible renders it:

4 This is the history[a] of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens, 5 before any plant of the field was in the earth and before any herb of the field had grown. For the LORD God had not caused it to rain on the earth, and there was no man to till the ground; 6 but a mist went up from the earth and watered the whole face of the ground.
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

The first part:

"4 This is the history[a] of the heavens and the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens, 5 before any plant of the field was in the earth and before any herb of the field had grown. For the LORD God had not caused it to rain on the earth, and there was no man to till the ground; 6 but a mist went up from the earth and watered the whole face of the ground. "

. . is explaining that there had been no rain on the earth [yet] and that the ground was watered with a mist. This is still talking about the day the Lord made the heavens and the earth. This is before plants were made AND before man was made.

Next, skipping over the rest of the things that were made (including the stars and moon and sun, as well as the plants and all the other animals) He goes right to describing the creation of Man (the main point of Genesis chapter 2 (Man and His thoughts on creating man):

"7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being."

It's quite explicit about doing so:
This isn't exactly obscure, is it?

This chapter is not the narrative, that was in chapter one, where the exact order was given. This chapter is to explain background that's helpful in understanding the setting.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-20-2011 3:08 AM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

    
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16085
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 143 of 146 (634238)
09-20-2011 3:50 AM
Reply to: Message 141 by DubyaDeeEm
09-20-2011 3:21 AM


Re: Sky Woman vs Adam and Eve
(this sounds very similar to Mohammed's explanation [in the Quran] of what "holds up the earth" (elephants standing on turtles' backs, etc))

As I have pointed out before, you made this up.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by DubyaDeeEm, posted 09-20-2011 3:21 AM DubyaDeeEm has not yet responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1533 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


(1)
Message 144 of 146 (634242)
09-20-2011 5:58 AM
Reply to: Message 141 by DubyaDeeEm
09-20-2011 3:21 AM


Re: Sky Woman vs Adam and Eve
PurpleDawn writes:

Show me how the Biblical creation stories are true and the Iroquois creation story is not.

quote:
The Bible's creation account fits perfectly with everything we know and see. The Bible is repeatedly vindicated by archeology. The Iroquois creation story (apparently there are various ones) seemingly begins with their land originally having been on the back of a huge turtle (this sounds very similar to Mohammed's explanation [in the Quran] of what "holds up the earth" (elephants standing on turtles' backs, etc)). It would be pretty hard to verify that North America was once on the back of a turtle (even if it were true).
The Iroquois creation account fits with everything we see today.

gentle hills, beautiful smelling flowers, quiet brooks, butterflies and numerous creatures, plants and earth formations...snakes, thorns on rose bushes, thunder and lightning and other more disturbing attributes of today's world...man and his many attributes...all that they created is an integral part of this Earth's Creation

It would be pretty hard to verify that snakes used to talk, plants came before the sun, fruit gives instant wisdom, or that creatures were made in a day.

Each story has story elements that can't be verified. People are supposed to understand that those parts are there to make a story that people want to remember. Stories are easier to pass on that reports.

quote:
I can't prove to you that the Bible is true or that it's creation account is true. I can show you where to look, but that is up to you. No one can prove or disprove God or the Bible (and all those claiming to have disproven it really are greatly given to exaggeration). I can give you plenty of great reasons to believe it, but belief is a choice, an act of the will. And it also is given by God.
It isn't about proving that the Bible is true or giving me reason to believe the Bible.

This thread is simply about showing that the creation stories are true vs other creation stories.

As we can see both creation stories have elements that are facts we can see today and elements that are fiction to aid in the storytelling.

Both serve their purpose for their people, but one can't really say one is true and one is false.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by DubyaDeeEm, posted 09-20-2011 3:21 AM DubyaDeeEm has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 145 of 146 (634254)
09-20-2011 9:49 AM
Reply to: Message 138 by DubyaDeeEm
09-20-2011 2:54 AM


Re: some basics
A Christian is a person that is recognized as a member of one of the many chapters of Club Christian.

A Muslim is a person that i recognized as a member of on of the chapters of Club Islam.

It really is that simple.

As to the Genesis creation myths, the methods used are different, the order of creation is different, the two gods described in the stories are different.

You can claim they are the same but the God in Genesis 1 is aloof, overarching, creates by an act of will alone, acts without hesitation and uncertainty but is also separate from his creation, not interacting.

The God in Genesis 2&3 though is unsure, a hands on tinkerer learning on the job, sometimes afraid, but also very human, interacting directly with the creation.

Two different gods, two different creation myths.

The question is though, why prefer those stories to any of the many others?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by DubyaDeeEm, posted 09-20-2011 2:54 AM DubyaDeeEm has not yet responded

  
Theodoric
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Posts: 5953
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 146 of 146 (634256)
09-20-2011 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 138 by DubyaDeeEm
09-20-2011 2:54 AM


Re: some basics
There are plenty of groups that call themselves Christian, that doesn't make them Christian anymore than nonviolent Muslims calling themselves Muslims makes them genuine followers of the teaching of Islam (which requires violence of any true follower).

Wow multiple fallacies in one sentence. May be you should learn more about the No True Scotsman fallacy. Also, you might want to study a little more on Islam. I don't think one of the pillars is violence.

The Pillars are
Testimony
Prayer
Fasting
Alms-giving
Pilgrimage.

Nope no violence there.

Islam can be translated to mean submission, but that is an internal submission to god.


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by DubyaDeeEm, posted 09-20-2011 2:54 AM DubyaDeeEm has not yet responded

    
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