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Author Topic:   Why prefer the Biblical creation account over those of other religions?
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 2577 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


(4)
Message 76 of 146 (632515)
09-08-2011 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by Chuck77
09-06-2011 7:40 PM


Re: And God said
most creation stories steal from the bible.

As if the Bible didn't steal from other sources. The spoken word creation stories Ie: genesis came later that the first of the Spoken word creation story, that of the Sumerians.
One only has to look at where Sumeria was, the lower part of Mesopotamia, the area later taken by the Babylonians, who had the land at the time Abraham left Ur and eventually wound up in Canaan. Logically he would have taken the account with him. As with any story, it changes over time do to human input. The stories may not totally jive, but the the base is the same. This can also be seen in the differences in Genesis 1 (Priestly) and Genesis 2 (Jahwist).

Edited by bluescat48, : my typpppinngg


There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002

Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008


This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Chuck77, posted 09-06-2011 7:40 PM Chuck77 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by Chuck77, posted 09-09-2011 1:36 AM bluescat48 has responded

  
Butterflytyrant
Member (Idle past 2809 days)
Posts: 415
From: Australia
Joined: 06-28-2011


Message 77 of 146 (632521)
09-08-2011 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by Buzsaw
09-06-2011 11:56 PM


Re: Biblical Account Has Evidence Of Accuracy
Hey Buz,

A lot of the Bible was knocked off of other pre christian reigions.

There is a doco called Zeitgeist that covers a lot of it. Here is a link to some of the relevent material - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y0U8UCyP_p8

I cant seem to get youtube links to work so if this one does not work, just hit the link. If anyone can help with why it wont work, please let me know.

there is this one too, it is a series of three vids and covers more material -
link - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqMQmO4-JzU&NR=1

Edited by Butterflytyrant, : No reason given.

Edited by Butterflytyrant, : trying again

Edited by Butterflytyrant, : having another shot at getting the vid to work

Edited by Butterflytyrant, : one more time...

Edited by Butterflytyrant, : giving up after this try

Edited by Butterflytyrant, : No reason given.

Edited by Butterflytyrant, : No reason given.

Edited by Butterflytyrant, : No reason given.


I could agree with you, but then we would both be wrong

Butterfly, AKA, mallethead - Dawn Bertot

"Superstitions and nonsense from the past should not prevent us from making progress. If we hold ourselves back, we admit that our fears are more powerful than our abilities." Hunters of Dune Herbert & Anderson


This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Buzsaw, posted 09-06-2011 11:56 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Jon, posted 09-08-2011 12:02 PM Butterflytyrant has responded
 Message 79 by fearandloathing, posted 09-08-2011 12:21 PM Butterflytyrant has acknowledged this reply
 Message 82 by PaulK, posted 09-08-2011 12:55 PM Butterflytyrant has responded
 Message 85 by Buzsaw, posted 09-08-2011 6:44 PM Butterflytyrant has acknowledged this reply

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 78 of 146 (632523)
09-08-2011 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Butterflytyrant
09-08-2011 11:52 AM


Re: Biblical Account Has Evidence Of Accuracy
A lot of the Bible was knocked off of other pre christian reigions.

Like Judaism?


Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Butterflytyrant, posted 09-08-2011 11:52 AM Butterflytyrant has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Butterflytyrant, posted 09-08-2011 12:42 PM Jon has not yet responded

  
fearandloathing
Member (Idle past 2532 days)
Posts: 990
From: Burlington, NC, USA
Joined: 02-24-2011


Message 79 of 146 (632529)
09-08-2011 12:21 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Butterflytyrant
09-08-2011 11:52 AM


Re: Biblical Account Has Evidence Of Accuracy

You have to use the embed HTML code, if you didn't get it directly from YT that might be the problem.

Peek at this message, hope this helps.

AbE
I have never used the DB codes for YT, I always just copy the HTML embed, right click on the video and it should give you a option to copy the HTML embed codes. LOL I didn't even know there was a DB code for that here til just now.

Edited by fearandloathing, : No reason given.


"No sympathy for the devil; keep that in mind. Buy the ticket, take the ride...and if it occasionally gets a little heavier than what you had in mind, well...maybe chalk it off to forced conscious expansion: Tune in, freak out, get beaten."
— Hunter S. Thompson

Ad astra per aspera

Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Butterflytyrant, posted 09-08-2011 11:52 AM Butterflytyrant has acknowledged this reply

  
Butterflytyrant
Member (Idle past 2809 days)
Posts: 415
From: Australia
Joined: 06-28-2011


Message 80 of 146 (632536)
09-08-2011 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Jon
09-08-2011 12:02 PM


Re: Biblical Account Has Evidence Of Accuracy
Hey Jon,

my comment - A lot of the Bible was knocked off of other pre christian reigions.

your reply - Like Judaism?

I will rephrase.

The holy books of the three major monotheistic religions are knockoffs of other pre christian religions.


I could agree with you, but then we would both be wrong

Butterfly, AKA, mallethead - Dawn Bertot

"Superstitions and nonsense from the past should not prevent us from making progress. If we hold ourselves back, we admit that our fears are more powerful than our abilities." Hunters of Dune Herbert & Anderson


This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Jon, posted 09-08-2011 12:02 PM Jon has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by jar, posted 09-08-2011 12:49 PM Butterflytyrant has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 32033
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 81 of 146 (632539)
09-08-2011 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Butterflytyrant
09-08-2011 12:42 PM


Re: Biblical Account Has Evidence Of Accuracy
Are you making too broad a claim there?

Do you mean that parts might be based on earlier mythos?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Butterflytyrant, posted 09-08-2011 12:42 PM Butterflytyrant has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by Butterflytyrant, posted 09-08-2011 1:07 PM jar has acknowledged this reply

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 15840
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 82 of 146 (632541)
09-08-2011 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Butterflytyrant
09-08-2011 11:52 AM


Re: Biblical Account Has Evidence Of Accuracy
I've heard about Zeitgeist, and what I've heard has not been very positive. I'd be wary of trusting it too far and look for verification in more scholarly sources.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Butterflytyrant, posted 09-08-2011 11:52 AM Butterflytyrant has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by Butterflytyrant, posted 09-08-2011 1:10 PM PaulK has not yet responded

  
Butterflytyrant
Member (Idle past 2809 days)
Posts: 415
From: Australia
Joined: 06-28-2011


Message 83 of 146 (632545)
09-08-2011 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by jar
09-08-2011 12:49 PM


Re: Biblical Account Has Evidence Of Accuracy
Hello Jar,

I was being intentionally broad.

The claims made by Buz are pretty broad too.

His claim -

The evidence I cited for this thread is real evidence that the Biblical record is THE record. All others have none whatsoever.

I was suggesting that the Bible may not be THE record.

Do you mean that parts might be based on earlier mythos?

Yes. I am not looking to start a whole debate over this. I was just suggesting that parts of the Bible may be borrowed from previous myths. I have doubts that the Bible is a single, stand alone, original text that is completely unique.

There are too many similarities to previous religious texts and ideas. I am not saying that this refutes the monotheistic religions. I am also not saying that the stories in the Bible did not happen. Just that the Bible may be one interpretation of events.

I probably should not do too much posting at 3am.


I could agree with you, but then we would both be wrong

Butterfly, AKA, mallethead - Dawn Bertot

"Superstitions and nonsense from the past should not prevent us from making progress. If we hold ourselves back, we admit that our fears are more powerful than our abilities." Hunters of Dune Herbert & Anderson


This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by jar, posted 09-08-2011 12:49 PM jar has acknowledged this reply

  
Butterflytyrant
Member (Idle past 2809 days)
Posts: 415
From: Australia
Joined: 06-28-2011


Message 84 of 146 (632547)
09-08-2011 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by PaulK
09-08-2011 12:55 PM


Re: Biblical Account Has Evidence Of Accuracy
Hello PaulK,

I've heard about Zeitgeist, and what I've heard has not been very positive. I'd be wary of trusting it too far and look for verification in more scholarly sources.

I agree. Some of it did set off the bullshit detectors.

I do know some of it to be factually correct though. The Book of Gilgamesh and some of the similarities discussed in rekation to other ancient religions for example.

The post was directed to a comment from Buz as well as the OP.


I could agree with you, but then we would both be wrong

Butterfly, AKA, mallethead - Dawn Bertot

"Superstitions and nonsense from the past should not prevent us from making progress. If we hold ourselves back, we admit that our fears are more powerful than our abilities." Hunters of Dune Herbert & Anderson


This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by PaulK, posted 09-08-2011 12:55 PM PaulK has not yet responded

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 85 of 146 (632595)
09-08-2011 6:44 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Butterflytyrant
09-08-2011 11:52 AM


Re: Biblical Account Has Evidence Of Accuracy
LOL. all of the Jewish OT scriptures were before the Christian era. What, having any significant corroborative evidences of the supernatural deity depicted in them precedes Abraham?

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Butterflytyrant, posted 09-08-2011 11:52 AM Butterflytyrant has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Wollysaurus, posted 09-08-2011 7:05 PM Buzsaw has responded

  
Wollysaurus
Member (Idle past 2879 days)
Posts: 52
From: US
Joined: 08-25-2011


Message 86 of 146 (632600)
09-08-2011 7:05 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by Buzsaw
09-08-2011 6:44 PM


Re: Biblical Account Has Evidence Of Accuracy
Buz,
buz writes:

LOL. all of the Jewish OT scriptures were before the Christian era. What, having any significant corroborative evidences of the supernatural deity depicted in them precedes Abraham?

Could you provide a bullet list of what you regard as specific and significant corroberative evidence for the existance of the diety of the OT? Doing so might provide a jumping off point to analyze other, arguably older religious source documents and help us to understand your standards of evidence and perhaps apply those standards to other mythos.

Edited by Wollysaurus, : Word change for clarity.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Buzsaw, posted 09-08-2011 6:44 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by Buzsaw, posted 09-08-2011 8:09 PM Wollysaurus has responded

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 87 of 146 (632603)
09-08-2011 8:09 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Wollysaurus
09-08-2011 7:05 PM


Re: Biblical Account Has Evidence Of Accuracy
Wollysaurus writes:

Could you provide a bullet list of what you regard as specific and significant corroborative evidence for the existence of the diety of the OT? Doing so might provide a jumping off point to analyze other, arguably older religious source documents and help us to understand your standards of evidence and perhaps apply those standards to other mythos.

Hi Wolly. Welcome. To delve into evidence perse would involve a lot of topics. It would lead to debates on some or all. I suggest you click on my username which will take you to my profile. It goes back 8+ years. There are threads with lists etc. about the various corroborative evidences supportive to the reliability of the Biblical record. Likely you'll not find any of these to be the case with pagan and Johnny-come-lately religions.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Wollysaurus, posted 09-08-2011 7:05 PM Wollysaurus has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by Wollysaurus, posted 09-08-2011 10:17 PM Buzsaw has responded

  
Wollysaurus
Member (Idle past 2879 days)
Posts: 52
From: US
Joined: 08-25-2011


(4)
Message 88 of 146 (632605)
09-08-2011 10:17 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by Buzsaw
09-08-2011 8:09 PM


Re: Biblical Account Has Evidence Of Accuracy
Buz,

Buzsaw writes:

Hi Wolly. Welcome. To delve into evidence perse would involve a lot of topics. It would lead to debates on some or all. I suggest you click on my username which will take you to my profile. It goes back 8+ years. There are threads with lists etc. about the various corroborative evidences supportive to the reliability of the Biblical record. Likely you'll not find any of these to be the case with pagan and Johnny-come-lately religions.

Thank you for the welcome

I have read through quite a few of your posts. If I may, I'll list a few of what I perceive as categories of evidence that you believe prove the existence of the God of the OT (who some Hebrews would have referred to as "Hashem", I believe). PLEASE let me know if I am mis-characterizing any positions you might hold. My intent is not to build a strawman, but rather to understand your position more clearly.

- Correlation between the text and verified historical events / locations / people (such as cities, rulers, etc). Example: Abraham comes from Ur, a place we have verified existed (I've actually been there and visited the reconstructed ziggurat while in Al Hillah, Iraq, along with the adjacent reconstruction efforts of the city of Babylon -- fascinating place)

- Fulfillment of Prophecies, whether of a national nature or the messianic sort. Example: You have repeatedly referenced the modern nation of Israel as an example of the fulfillment of Prophecy. Obviously, Jesus as the Messiah fulfills your interpretation of Old Testament Prophecy.

- Personal testimony. God as experienced by the believer, and His impact in their lives. Very hard to quantify, in my opinion, but taken as evidence by those who believe.

- Primary (?) source material, such as the Gospels, to be regarded as eyewitness testimony to the truth of matters such as the life of Christ and His resurrection.

- Various observations regarding the nature of our position in nature / the universe. Very broad, but encapsulating areas such as the anthropic principle and humankind's dominion over the earth.

I'm sure this list is not all-encompassing and surely contains errors based upon the fact that it is me attempting to describe *your* position.

I think the problem lies in that many of these areas might be claimed by various sects within even Christianity itself who hold mutually exclusive views of the nature of God and His creation. For example, those churches who view the universe as being as old and operating under the laws described by cosmology, astronomy, physics, evolutionary biology, etc, versus those more fundamentalist churches who subscribe to a young earth view, in line with a more literalist reading of the texts. They can't all be right, but they might all use the same sort of evidence to support their viewpoint on the nature of God and his role in creation.

Taking it a step further, other faiths might be able to "check the blocks" just the same. We believe, for example, that various religious figures have been real people (Zoroaster, Siddhartha Gautama, Muhammad to name a couple) but the fact that they probably actually existed, in and of itself, does not prove that the movements they started possess any particular ownership of understanding of reality. Muhammad, as an example, started a highly successful religion (with arguably fewer schisms than Christianity) which thrived under expansive Caliphates and continues as a religious powerhouse to this day, breeding at its fringes believers with such a powerful "testimony" (they would not use this word, but I am) that they are willing to strap explosives to themselves to prove their faith.

Other posters have described the fact that various faiths can point to fulfilled prophecy, but a (slightly disconnected) example might be the quatrains of Nostradamus; many wholeheartedly believe that he predicted events with uncanny accuracy. Did he? Or were his "predictions" so worded that it is easy to wedge events into their framework, and so see fulfilled prophecy where there is only rambling?

If the coming of Christ was so clearly a fulfillment of ages of prophecy, and he was so clearly the Messiah, why were not many, many more Jews quick to join the movement? Instead, we see the majority of success among the gentiles.

You were certainly correct when you said "It would lead to debates on some or all". I suppose my point is simply that more than one faith could make claim to evidence to support their assertions, indeed they must, or else they would likely cease to exist! As the OP asks, if we were to assume natural selection to be voided (and for the sake of conversation probably any evidence leading to a natural origin for the world), what evidence is there that would mean we should automatically gravitate to the Genesis account and the God therein? Why would this, for example, eliminate Islam as the answer? After all, Isa (Jesus) will come back as promised, just to announce the arrival of the Mahdi. Maybe you are wrong, and you only have half the answer, and Muhammad supplied the rest.

Are we to come to the conclusion that Christianity (in whatever form) is correct, or just that the God of the OT is the answer? And even if we were to come to the conclusion that the God of the OT exists, how would this, by default, legitimize Christianity? Plenty of Jews don't accept Jesus as the Messiah.

I am not trying to be combative or snarky. If I come across as either, that is not my intent. I enjoy a good, well argued discussion and look forward to your reply.

Edited by Wollysaurus, : I've had a couple cocktails, and grammar fades in direct proportion to the number of drinks.

Edited by Wollysaurus, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Buzsaw, posted 09-08-2011 8:09 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Buzsaw, posted 09-09-2011 1:12 AM Wollysaurus has responded

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16107
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 89 of 146 (632608)
09-08-2011 11:21 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by Chuck77
09-08-2011 5:29 AM


Re: really? really? steal from the bible? really?
I glanced at it yes. Do I have to address everyone? The OP is talking about religions (i.e hinduism etc.) not what the bushman in the congo believe.

There are no Bushmen in the Congo, unless they're lost, and how is the worship of Kaang not a religion? He's a perfectly respectable god, he's done all the usual god stuff --- created the world, rose from the dead, committed genocide in a fit of pique, lives in the sky, what have you got against him?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Chuck77, posted 09-08-2011 5:29 AM Chuck77 has responded

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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 90 of 146 (632619)
09-09-2011 1:12 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by Wollysaurus
09-08-2011 10:17 PM


Re: Biblical Account Has Evidence Of Accuracy
wollysaurus writes:

Why would this, for example, eliminate Islam as the answer? After all, Isa (Jesus) will come back as promised, just to announce the arrival of the Mahdi. Maybe you are wrong, and you only have half the answer, and Muhammad supplied the rest.

Are we to come to the conclusion that Christianity (in whatever form) is correct, or just that the God of the OT is the answer? And even if we were to come to the conclusion that the God of the OT exists, how would this, by default, legitimize Christianity? Plenty of Jews don't accept Jesus as the Messiah.

Hey Wolly, (I hope you don't mind the nickname) I appreciate the effort you've gone to for a response. I'll post a few comments about your message. There are a number of corroborative evidences which you missed which is to be expected since you're a new member.

    1. Cultural: Biblical fundamentalist nations, that is nations which are the closest to the Biblical principles, be it Israel in the Old Testament (OT) or Christianity in the Christian era.

    The Catholic nations such as during the Inquisitions etc as well as Modern ones like Mexico, Central & South American nations, and some European nations, etc who have deviated from Biblical New Testament principles set forth by Jesus and his apostles by and large have been less prosperous, free and blessed as

    Protestant nations which have adhered closer to them. The US, being the most Biblically fundamental, by and large is the best example.

    Israel was blessed when it followed God's laws for them and suffered when they deviated into pagan practices. That alone should tell us something relative to this thread.

    The pagan nations and cultures of Africa and South America, the Islands etc have been the most uncivilized, blessed, prosperous.

    Fundamentalist Protestant Christian nations have lent the most help to distressed nations who have suffered disasters, famine, etc, furnishing funds, personnel, clothes, food, airlifts, etc to the less Biblical nations. They get little or no help from any of the other religions such as Islamic, Hindu, Buddhist, Roman Catholic, etc.

    2. Prophecy. You missed a number of significant ones, such as by Jesus and some of the apostles, particularly the prophet John in Revelation. Some examples are global marks & numbers monetary system (emerging), climate change, increase of homosexuality, children disobedient to parents, apostasy from Christianity, severe persecution of Christians, signs in the heavens, technology increase such as TV (ability for all nations to view local events, global new world order (emerging) etc etc.

    The OT is rife with prophecies relative to Israel, Jesus's claim as messiah, end time events such as nations assembling in the Mid East, Israel's phenomenal restoration, climate change, The Abrahamic Covenant, nations being blessed who bless Israel and cursed who curse Israel, etc, naming nations which will be hostile to invade restored Israel, etc.

    3. Historical. Fulfilled prophecy, rise and fall of empires, etc. There is more verifiable history in the Bible than in any other religious book.

    Josephus's writings come to mind.

    4. Government: Muslim, Roman Catholic, Hindu, Buddhist, Pagan etc cultures, by and large, have experienced more oppressive treatment from their governments than have Protestant Christian cultures.

    5. War: Prisoners of war treated worse than nations listed about, by and large.

    6. Archeological. What do you think about the Exodus debate threads. Have you viewed the videos, etc?

    Many cities, cultures, people and places etc, once questionable as having existed, eventually discovered by archaeologists. The Dead Sea Scrolls being significant, etc.

As for Islam, I'm surprised you even mention Islam in comparison with the Bible relative to evidence.

Mohammed gleaned much of his doctrine from a very distorted and limited knowledge of the OT. The only significant prophecy in it that I can think of is that it will eventually become the mainline world religion. Guess what? The Biblical prophecies beat him to it, naming prominent Muslim nations who will ally with nations north of Israel (Russia, Turkey, etc) to have enough global clout to do a Desert Storm like invasion of Israel in the end time; Armageddon.

Islam has precious little of any of the things listed above relative to the Biblical record.

I hope this helps.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Wollysaurus, posted 09-08-2011 10:17 PM Wollysaurus has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Wollysaurus, posted 09-09-2011 2:10 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
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