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Author Topic:   Is the Global Flood Feasible? Discussion Q&A
TrueCreation
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 352 (904)
12-18-2001 5:51 PM


Post your questions on why you think the Flood could not have happend or could have happend and give reasons why.

------------------

[This message has been edited by TrueCreation, 12-31-2001]


Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by mark24, posted 12-18-2001 7:51 PM TrueCreation has not yet responded
 Message 21 by mark24, posted 12-19-2001 6:14 PM TrueCreation has not yet responded
 Message 259 by Peter, posted 05-03-2002 6:23 AM TrueCreation has responded
 Message 270 by Philip, posted 05-13-2002 1:29 AM TrueCreation has responded
 Message 346 by Minnemooseus, posted 02-25-2003 1:52 AM TrueCreation has responded

Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3725
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 2 of 352 (908)
12-18-2001 7:26 PM


There have been world wide floods, as evidence in the geologic record indicates. For example, there are marine fossils found in the rocks of mid-continental North America. This is not to say that the presence of marine fossils at the summit of Mt. Everest means that the seas were once at that elevation. Those fossils originated at a much lower elevation, and were raised to such heights by later deformation of the earth's crust.

There is no evidence (that I know of) of such world wide flooding in recent times, as promoted by a fundamentalist interpretation of the Bible.

Can someone else supply documentation of evidence of such a recent world wide flood?

Moose

------------------
Old Earth evolution - Yes
Godly creation - Maybe


  
mark24
Member (Idle past 3361 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 3 of 352 (915)
12-18-2001 7:51 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by TrueCreation
12-18-2001 5:51 PM


Just a quickie. Did the flood cover all land?

------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by TrueCreation, posted 12-18-2001 5:51 PM TrueCreation has not yet responded

  
Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3725
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 4 of 352 (916)
12-18-2001 7:54 PM


From Yahoo: Evolution versus Creation post 10743:
http://messages.clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/evolutionversuscreationism...

From book "Evolution Of The Earth", 2nd Edition, 1976, Robert H. Dott, Jr. and Roger L. Batten, pp. 5-7.

-GLACIERS AND SEA LEVEL-

The last glacial maximum occurred about 20,000 to 25,000 years ago, and from evidence of submerged ancient shoreline features, it is inferred that sea level must have been aproximately 100 meters (roughly 300 feet) lower than at present.

Several geologists have carefully studied the changes of sea level during the past 20,000 year, and some have attempted to link these with historical records. They suggest that an average rise of 100 cm per century occurred from about 17,000 up to 6,000 years ago. About 4000 B.C., rapid rise culminated, and all subsequent rise has averaged only 12 to 15 centimeters per century. Clearly, the last phase of rapid rise may have caused flooding of early Bronze Age coastal settlements, and it is certainly interesting to find reference to a deluge in the legends of many separate, ancient cultures including Greek, Babylonian, Hindu, and Hebrew, most familiar to us in the Old Testament.

About 1925, a 3-meter-thick clay layer with marine shells was discovered beneath Ur, one of the world's most ancient cities located in the lower Euphrates valley and known to date back at least to 3000 or 4000 B.C. (Fig. 1.7). Paleolithic human artifacts underlie the clay, thus dating the oceanic incursion at between 4000 and about 8000 B.C. Similar buried clay, though thinner, was then found to underlie a large area of the Tigris-Euphrates valleys. Seemingly, proof of the ancient flood had been discovered at last! It is interesting to note the close correspondence of the age of the clay established archaeologically with the culmination of postglacial rapid rise of sea level established geologically. In 3000 B.C., Ur stood at the head of the Persian Gulf; so it is possible that rising sea level rapidly flooded the lower valley until the rivers could extent their deposits southward again by sedimentation. Since 3000 B.C. it is known that the Tigris-Euphrates delta has advanced southward nearly 175 kilometers (100 miles); today it advances 25 meter per year.

Could recent small oscillations of sea level have given rise in the Mediterranean-Persian Gulf region to the many ancient Flood legends? If the biblical story were correct, there should have been simultaneous wetting of all other great ancient coastal civilizations. But it has not been possible to establish any synchroneity of deluges reported in the many ancient traditions. Probably these events resulted from periodic local river floods, which caused devastation of the great cultural centers concentrated on low-lying deltas of large rivers. Even today the Tigris-Euphrates delta is subject to frequent floods, and annually two-thirds of Bangladesh, on the immense Ganges delta, disappears beneath several meters of water during monsoon season. Both regions are low and swampy for hundreds of miles inland.

Even if small rises of sea level did occur, they could not have inundated the whole then-known world, as tradition would have us believe, but only low coastal areas. For the past 6,000 years, maximum vertical fluctuations of only about 3 meters above or below present sea level are indicated.

Note: in Figure 1.7, the map shows the marine clay to underlie an area of about 150 x 500 miles of the Tigris-Euphrates River valley area.

Comment: Note that the fastest sea rise rate was 100 cm per century, or 1 cm per year.
END OF POST 10743

The map cited can be found at:
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/evolutionversuscreationism?ge&.alabel=alb8&.pindex=1&start=1

Current comment:
This may tie into the Biblical story of the great flood, but it was hardly fast happening nor of real great extent.

Moose

------------------
Old Earth evolution - Yes
Godly creation - Maybe

{Edited the form of that first link, to get the page width back to normal - Moose}

[This message has been edited by minnemooseus, 02-25-2003]


  
TrueCreation
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 352 (917)
12-18-2001 8:00 PM


Moose,
That can very much depend on how you interperate your evidence. When you consider a worldwide deluge in the form of a flood such as the catastrophic event of Noah's Flood it quite well explains just about everything of natural formation that is usually interpreted to millions of years and other smaller happenings to slowly give the effect of a worldwide catastrophe. The Flood of Noah has evidence in im sure all the areas of Geology that you could look at. Such as why the Layers are sorted as they appear in the 'geologic column'. How the fossils are arranged throughout, plate tectonics, even the Massive formations of erosion on Mars, and, the rings of Saturn. It depend simply on how your going to interperate the evidence. When you consider all of these things created by this Global Flood you can see all the pieces fit together uniformly and without many problems.
I agree with your saying that the presence of marine fossils at the summit of Everest doesn't mean that the seas must have gained a height of its peak. The Global Flood explains aspects of plate tectonics in uplift of the mountains after and during the Flood, and happening very quickly compared to today's slow uplift rates. . Coal beds, Fossils, Grand Canyon, Sedimentation experiments, hardgrounds, and continental drift are also aspects that a Global Flood has no problem in encountering.
If someone would be able to give specifics I could explain the 'problem'.
Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Minnemooseus, posted 12-19-2001 12:22 AM TrueCreation has responded
 Message 18 by nator, posted 12-19-2001 12:20 PM TrueCreation has responded

TrueCreation
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 352 (918)
12-18-2001 8:10 PM


Yes the Flood Covered All the land, the whole world and its 'high' hills.
Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by mark24, posted 12-18-2001 8:44 PM TrueCreation has responded

mark24
Member (Idle past 3361 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 7 of 352 (921)
12-18-2001 8:44 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by TrueCreation
12-18-2001 8:10 PM


quote:
Originally posted by TrueCreation:
Yes the Flood Covered All the land, the whole world and its 'high' hills.

If I'm going to bite, I may as well ask the obvious ones.

1/What time period are we talking?

2/Where did all the water come from?

------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

[This message has been edited by mark24, 12-18-2001]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by TrueCreation, posted 12-18-2001 8:10 PM TrueCreation has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by TrueCreation, posted 12-18-2001 9:20 PM mark24 has responded

  
TrueCreation
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 352 (922)
12-18-2001 9:20 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by mark24
12-18-2001 8:44 PM


1. What time period are we talking?

If you mean to imply what geologic time period like triassic, jurrasic, etc then I would have to say every time period, but If you are just asking how long ago it happend then I would have to say about 4,500 years ago.

2. Where did all the water come from?
The water came from the 'windows of heaven' and the 'fountains of the deep' For some reason I think there was a 3rd source but I think it was just another reference to rain and the windows of heaven.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by mark24, posted 12-18-2001 8:44 PM mark24 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by mark24, posted 12-19-2001 4:26 AM TrueCreation has responded

Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3725
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 9 of 352 (928)
12-19-2001 12:22 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by TrueCreation
12-18-2001 8:00 PM


A c. 4500 year ago great flood in no way can account for the complexity of the geologic record. That is the concensus thought of most all trained in and knowledgeable about geologic processes. To the contrary, there is no geologic evidence of this flood having happened.

Focusing in on one specific point:
TrueCreation: "The Global Flood explains aspects of plate tectonics in uplift of the mountains".
Would you care to elaborate on this?

Moose

------------------
Old Earth evolution - Yes
Godly creation - Maybe


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by TrueCreation, posted 12-18-2001 8:00 PM TrueCreation has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by TrueCreation, posted 12-19-2001 7:34 AM Minnemooseus has not yet responded

  
mark24
Member (Idle past 3361 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 10 of 352 (929)
12-19-2001 4:26 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by TrueCreation
12-18-2001 9:20 PM


quote:
Originally posted by TrueCreation:
1. What time period are we talking?

2/ Where did all the water come from?
The water came from the 'windows of heaven' and the 'fountains of the deep' For some reason I think there was a 3rd source but I think it was just another reference to rain and the windows of heaven.


Could you elaborate & supply mechanisms for the "fountains of the deep" & "windows of heaven" pls.

quote:
Originally posted by TrueCreation:
The Global Flood explains aspects of plate tectonics in uplift of the mountains

Plate tectonics & mountain uplift are adequately explained by mainstrean geology. What aspects are not explained by mainstream geology that are BETTER explained by the Flood scenario.

Also, pls provide biblical quotes for such catastrophism beyond the water, please.

------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

[This message has been edited by mark24, 12-19-2001]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by TrueCreation, posted 12-18-2001 9:20 PM TrueCreation has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by TrueCreation, posted 12-19-2001 8:44 AM mark24 has responded

  
TrueCreation
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 352 (933)
12-19-2001 7:34 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Minnemooseus
12-19-2001 12:22 AM


What is the basis of your claim that the Flood could never happen and that there is no geologic evidence of a Catastrophic Flood ever happening? What would you expect to see if it did happen?

Plate Tectonics - "This mechanism of runaway subduction then appears to satisfy most of the critical requirements imposed by the observational data to successfully account for the Biblical Flood. It leads to a generally correct pattern of large scale tectonic change; it produces flooding of the continents; it causes broad uplifts and downwarpings of craton interiors with intense downwarpings at portions of craton margins to yield the types of sediment distributions observed. It also transports huge volumes of marine sediments to craton edges as ocean floor, in conveyor belt fashion, plunges into the mantle and most of the sediment is scraped off and left behind. It plausibly leads to intense global rain as hot magma erupted in zones of plate divergence, in direct contact with ocean water, creates bubbles of high pressure steam that emerge from the ocean, rise rapidly through the atmosphere, radiate their heat to space, and precipitate their water as rain. That no air-breathing life could survive such a catastrophe and that most marine life also perished is readily believable. Finally, numerical modeling appears to be the most practical means for reconstructing a comprehensive picture of such an event and for creating a conceptual framework into which the geological observational data can be correctly integrated and understood. This calculation, it is hoped, is a modest step in that direction. "

The effects and cause of the Flood of Noah through runaway subduction is in depth explained here, Plate tectonics is a huge subject and It would take too much time for me to summerize it for you. If you would like to give me comments on that page that is fine with me.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Minnemooseus, posted 12-19-2001 12:22 AM Minnemooseus has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by mark24, posted 12-19-2001 7:50 AM TrueCreation has responded

mark24
Member (Idle past 3361 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 12 of 352 (934)
12-19-2001 7:50 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by TrueCreation
12-19-2001 7:34 AM


quote:
Originally posted by TrueCreation:
What is the basis of your claim that the Flood could never happen and that there is no geologic evidence of a Catastrophic Flood ever happening? What would you expect to see if it did happen?

Plate Tectonics - "This mechanism of runaway subduction then appears to satisfy most of the critical requirements imposed by the observational data to successfully account for the Biblical Flood. It leads to a generally correct pattern of large scale tectonic change; it produces flooding of the continents; it causes broad uplifts and downwarpings of craton interiors with intense downwarpings at portions of craton margins to yield the types of sediment distributions observed. It also transports huge volumes of marine sediments to craton edges as ocean floor, in conveyor belt fashion, plunges into the mantle and most of the sediment is scraped off and left behind. It plausibly leads to intense global rain as hot magma erupted in zones of plate divergence, in direct contact with ocean water, creates bubbles of high pressure steam that emerge from the ocean, rise rapidly through the atmosphere, radiate their heat to space, and precipitate their water as rain. That no air-breathing life could survive such a catastrophe and that most marine life also perished is readily believable. Finally, numerical modeling appears to be the most practical means for reconstructing a comprehensive picture of such an event and for creating a conceptual framework into which the geological observational data can be correctly integrated and understood. This calculation, it is hoped, is a modest step in that direction. "

The effects and cause of the Flood of Noah through runaway subduction is in depth explained here, Plate tectonics is a huge subject and It would take too much time for me to summerize it for you. If you would like to give me comments on that page that is fine with me.


theres a lot here, & I hope to answer you properly, but I'd like the biblical quotes detailing the tectonic activity as well pls, so I can argue from both perspectives.

There are so many creationist accounts, that I need to know all that I'm dealing with before I answer, just saves time.

------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

[This message has been edited by mark24, 12-19-2001]

[This message has been edited by mark24, 12-19-2001]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by TrueCreation, posted 12-19-2001 7:34 AM TrueCreation has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by TrueCreation, posted 12-19-2001 8:34 AM mark24 has responded

  
TrueCreation
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 352 (937)
12-19-2001 8:34 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by mark24
12-19-2001 7:50 AM


These are some of the versus in the bible that indicate the 'action' events of the Flood.

7:11 - In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, on the seventeenth day of the second month--on that day all the springs of the great deep burst forth, and the floodgates of the heavens were opened.
7:12 - And rain fell on the earth forty days and forty nights.
7:17 - For forty days the flood kept coming on the earth, and as the waters increased they lifted the ark high above the earth.
7:18 - The waters rose and increased greatly on the earth, and the ark floated on the surface of the water.
7:19 - They rose greatly on the earth, and all the high mountains under the entire heavens were covered.
7:20 - The waters rose and covered the mountains to a depth of more than twenty feet.
7:24 - The waters flooded the earth for a hundred and fifty days.

8:1 - But God remembered Noah and all the wild animals and the livestock that were with him in the ark, and he sent a wind over the earth, and the waters receded.
8:2 - Now the springs of the deep and the floodgates of the heavens had been closed, and the rain had stopped falling from the sky.
8:3 - The water receded steadily from the earth. At the end of the hundred and fifty days the water had gone down,
8:4 - and on the seventeenth day of the seventh month the ark came to rest on the mountains of Ararat.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by mark24, posted 12-19-2001 7:50 AM mark24 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by mark24, posted 12-19-2001 8:39 AM TrueCreation has responded

mark24
Member (Idle past 3361 days)
Posts: 3857
From: UK
Joined: 12-01-2001


Message 14 of 352 (938)
12-19-2001 8:39 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by TrueCreation
12-19-2001 8:34 AM


Thank you, one last thing, your original quote mentions calculations, if they are relevent please post them.

------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by TrueCreation, posted 12-19-2001 8:34 AM TrueCreation has responded

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TrueCreation
Inactive Member


Message 15 of 352 (939)
12-19-2001 8:44 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by mark24
12-19-2001 4:26 AM


The windows of heaven seem to be some mechanism that brought about the heavy rain for the first 40 days. The mechanism for this can be explained by the Volcanic activity that would have happend as a chain reaction from the fountains of the deep breaking open. Oceans and water would be quickly and immensly evaporated and thrown into the air like clouds and pouring all over the earth as heavy rain. There also could be other mechanisms that would have happend in such a catastrophic event.
The Fountains of the Great deep could be the effects of the splitting of the earth such as to form the cracks in the earth and the ridges all along the sea bottoms in the atlantic and other areas around the world.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by mark24, posted 12-19-2001 4:26 AM mark24 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by mark24, posted 12-19-2001 9:48 AM TrueCreation has responded

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