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Author Topic:   So Just How is ID's Supernatural-based Science Supposed to Work? (SUM. MESSAGES ONLY)
Percy
Member
Posts: 18799
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 316 of 396 (618235)
06-02-2011 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 315 by tesla
06-02-2011 11:34 AM


Re: open minded debate
Hi Tesla,

Are you still discussing how supernatural ID science is supposed to work? If you are then I'm finding it hard to see the relationship.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 315 by tesla, posted 06-02-2011 11:34 AM tesla has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 317 by tesla, posted 06-02-2011 12:13 PM Percy has acknowledged this reply

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 2284 days)
Posts: 1198
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 317 of 396 (618242)
06-02-2011 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 316 by Percy
06-02-2011 11:41 AM


Re: open minded debate
Are you still discussing how supernatural ID science is supposed to work? If you are then I'm finding it hard to see the relationship.

See the bottom portion of post 315.

Intelligent Design Science: acknowledges superior consciousness that dictated the 'design' of the universe.

My position is science has not ruled out that possibility and considers 'Supreme Being' Supernatural.

My position still is that Supernatural only means it is beyond the abilities of current science to understand.

With acknowledgment of the potential, the ability to truly 'disprove' this belief is by understanding consciousness. Science does not yet have that capacity; therefore, it is still potential.

I believe scientists attempting to interpret brain functions of consciousness would receive funding from churches and other religious orders who believe that unlocking consciousness at its base physics could lead to a greater understanding of God.

This would only accelerate the knowledge of science and give science the potential to either prove or disprove Supreme Being.

Everyone wins.

Edited by tesla, : spacing


keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides
This message is a reply to:
 Message 316 by Percy, posted 06-02-2011 11:41 AM Percy has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 318 by Straggler, posted 06-02-2011 1:56 PM tesla has responded
 Message 346 by Scienctifictruths, posted 06-02-2011 8:23 PM tesla has responded

Straggler
Member
Posts: 10285
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 318 of 396 (618258)
06-02-2011 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 317 by tesla
06-02-2011 12:13 PM


Re: open minded debate
Tesla writes:

My position still is that Supernatural only means it is beyond the abilities of current science to understand.

As I have pointed out to you previously - Everybody here accepts that there are things which science has not yet explained. So by your pointlessly all-encompassing-to-the-point-of-meaningless definition everybody here (not to mention the likes of Richard Dawkins and James Randi) are ardent believers in the existence of the supernatural.

If you insist on applying your own personal definition to everyone elses arguments you are going to do nothing but disrupt threads with your semantic nonsense.

Tesla writes:

This would only accelerate the knowledge of science and give science the potential to either prove or disprove Supreme Being.

I have also pointed out to you that evidence based investigation isn't in the business of proof.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 317 by tesla, posted 06-02-2011 12:13 PM tesla has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 319 by tesla, posted 06-02-2011 3:24 PM Straggler has responded

tesla
Member (Idle past 2284 days)
Posts: 1198
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 319 of 396 (618285)
06-02-2011 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 318 by Straggler
06-02-2011 1:56 PM


Re: open minded debate
I have also pointed out to you that evidence based investigation isn't in the business of proof.

And this is where science apparently disagrees with itself.

For instance here is a Berkley quote: (under falsifiable)

"A falsifiable idea, on the other hand, is one for which there is a conceivable test that might produce evidence proving the idea false."

It comes from this link: http://undsci.berkeley.edu/teaching/misconceptions.php

Where it also points out:

"Scientists are judged on the basis of how many correct hypotheses they propose (i.e., good scientists are the ones who are "right" most often). "

How do we judge 'right'? Evidence. And what is evidence considered by most? proof

"Journalists often write about "scientific proof" and some scientists talk about it, but in fact, the concept of proof — real, absolute proof — is not particularly scientific."

So please read that sentence as "evidence" instead of proof. if it will make you feel more comfortable. But if evidence is considered to be ‘proof’--tentative, scientifically accepted; proof--then its semantics.

However, did you really read that post and just ignore the potential to grow actual scientific knowledge by accepting the notion that the exploration could unlock evidence of supreme consciousness?

Do you know how much funding could be funneled into scientific research in the realm of neurological understanding and physics?

Probably more funding than was sunk into the hadron collider. Scientist had no idea what, if anything, would be discovered by that.


keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides
This message is a reply to:
 Message 318 by Straggler, posted 06-02-2011 1:56 PM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 320 by Panda, posted 06-02-2011 3:40 PM tesla has acknowledged this reply
 Message 321 by Straggler, posted 06-02-2011 3:40 PM tesla has responded

Panda
Member (Idle past 1939 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 320 of 396 (618289)
06-02-2011 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 319 by tesla
06-02-2011 3:24 PM


Re: open minded debate
tesla writes:

"A falsifiable idea, on the other hand, is one for which there is a conceivable test that might produce evidence proving the idea false."


Yay.
Now we get to watch you jump between definitions of 'Proof'.

The parrot is blue and the parrot is not blue. Is the parrot blue?
You have still never answered this correctly. Can you not understand English?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 319 by tesla, posted 06-02-2011 3:24 PM tesla has acknowledged this reply

Straggler
Member
Posts: 10285
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 321 of 396 (618290)
06-02-2011 3:40 PM
Reply to: Message 319 by tesla
06-02-2011 3:24 PM


Re: open minded debate
So what is it you think science can "prove" regarding the actuality of things which are defined (by humans) as being materially inexplicable and unfalsifiable?

Concepts that are defined to be unfalsifiable (Whether it be Allah, Vishnu or Last Thursdayism) are abundant.

But science need pay no heed to such things beyond vague philosophical recognition of their unfalsifiability.

If Last Thursdayism is correct then Evolution is necessarily false. But as far as science is concerned - So what? Why even consider the baseless beliefs of those who treat falsification as the be-all-and-end-all of scientific endevour? They are just deluding themselves with the comforting notion that "My belief can't be falsified therefore it is as justified as any other".


This message is a reply to:
 Message 319 by tesla, posted 06-02-2011 3:24 PM tesla has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 322 by tesla, posted 06-02-2011 4:06 PM Straggler has responded

tesla
Member (Idle past 2284 days)
Posts: 1198
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 322 of 396 (618298)
06-02-2011 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 321 by Straggler
06-02-2011 3:40 PM


Re: open minded debate
So what is it you think science can "prove" regarding the actuality of things which are defined (by humans) as being materially inexplicable and unfalsifiable?

I'm not sure what evidence will be discovered. I do know discoveries will be made, and many discoveries are potential.

If Last Thursdayism is correct then Evolution is necessarily false. But as far as science is concerned - So what? Why even consider the baseless beliefs of those who treat falsification as the be-all-and-end-all of scientific endevour? They are just deluding themselves with the comforting notion that "My belief can't be falsified therefore it is as justified as any other".

You’re looking at a very small picture. The majority of mankind believes that God is a real thing. Only a few positional-agitated scientists would gawk at scientists studying consciousness at the level of physics and chemistry necessary to understand the behavior--with the premise that it is potential to discover superior consciousness as it is believed to exist--when billions are being dumped into the research.


keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides
This message is a reply to:
 Message 321 by Straggler, posted 06-02-2011 3:40 PM Straggler has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 323 by jar, posted 06-02-2011 4:13 PM tesla has responded
 Message 337 by Straggler, posted 06-02-2011 6:45 PM tesla has responded

jar
Member
Posts: 31167
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 323 of 396 (618300)
06-02-2011 4:13 PM
Reply to: Message 322 by tesla
06-02-2011 4:06 PM


Re: open minded debate
tesla writes:


You’re looking at a very small picture. The majority of mankind believes that God is a real thing. Only a few positional-agitated scientists would gawk at scientists studying consciousness at the level of physics and chemistry necessary to understand the behavior--with the premise that it is potential to discover superior consciousness as it is believed to exist--when billions are being dumped into the research.

First, belief that God is real is totally irrelevant; is there EVIDENCE that God exists?

If there is no evidence that God exists then there is nothing to investigate.

Second, studying consciousness has NOTHING to do with supernatural.

Third, unless there is some evidence that something called "superior consciousness" there is nothing to investigate.

Do you have evidence that God or superior consciousness or supernatural exist?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 322 by tesla, posted 06-02-2011 4:06 PM tesla has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 324 by tesla, posted 06-02-2011 4:31 PM jar has responded

tesla
Member (Idle past 2284 days)
Posts: 1198
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 324 of 396 (618302)
06-02-2011 4:31 PM
Reply to: Message 323 by jar
06-02-2011 4:13 PM


Re: open minded debate
First, belief that God is real is totally irrelevant; is there EVIDENCE that God exists?

The majority of mankind believes there is and that he does.

If there is no evidence that God exists then there is nothing to investigate.

Hosea 4:6:
“My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge; because you have rejected knowledge, I reject you from being a priest to me. And since you have forgotten the law of your God, I also will forget your children."

Second, studying consciousness has NOTHING to do with supernatural.

The majority of those who 'hear' God report that God communicates via consciousness.

Third, unless there is some evidence that something called "superior consciousness" there is nothing to investigate.

Do you have evidence that God or superior consciousness or supernatural exist?

The claims of the majority of humans on this planet is enough to validate true examination, via true scientific methods; to understand consciousness in the hopes to validate what the majority already believe.
Remember, people do not just believe in this idea tentatively. They truly trust God is real.


keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides
This message is a reply to:
 Message 323 by jar, posted 06-02-2011 4:13 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 325 by jar, posted 06-02-2011 4:34 PM tesla has responded
 Message 327 by Theodoric, posted 06-02-2011 4:44 PM tesla has responded

jar
Member
Posts: 31167
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 325 of 396 (618305)
06-02-2011 4:34 PM
Reply to: Message 324 by tesla
06-02-2011 4:31 PM


Re: open minded debate
And it just plain don't matter what they believe.

Before you can investigate something there must be some evidence that it exists.

Do you have evidence that God or superior consciousness or supernatural exist?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 324 by tesla, posted 06-02-2011 4:31 PM tesla has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 326 by tesla, posted 06-02-2011 4:43 PM jar has responded

tesla
Member (Idle past 2284 days)
Posts: 1198
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 326 of 396 (618307)
06-02-2011 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 325 by jar
06-02-2011 4:34 PM


Re: open minded debate
And it just plain don't matter what they believe.
Before you can investigate something there must be some evidence that it exists.

Do you have evidence that God or superior consciousness or supernatural exist?

The evidence of that is what will hopefully be discovered. The path to scientific evidence of that: begins with first understanding human consciousness, and the physics of thoughts.
That is something we can study towards that end [of understanding superior consciousness].


keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides
This message is a reply to:
 Message 325 by jar, posted 06-02-2011 4:34 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 328 by jar, posted 06-02-2011 4:52 PM tesla has responded

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 6488
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 327 of 396 (618308)
06-02-2011 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 324 by tesla
06-02-2011 4:31 PM


Re: open minded debate
tesla writes:

jar writes:

First, belief that God is real is totally irrelevant; is there EVIDENCE that God exists?

The majority of mankind believes there is and that he does.

Knowing that CS will again mock me for this, I have to ask.
Do they believe there is evidence or is there evidence? Very much different things.

If there is evidence what is it?


Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
This message is a reply to:
 Message 324 by tesla, posted 06-02-2011 4:31 PM tesla has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 329 by tesla, posted 06-02-2011 4:52 PM Theodoric has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31167
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 328 of 396 (618309)
06-02-2011 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 326 by tesla
06-02-2011 4:43 PM


Re: open minded debate
tesla writes:

And it just plain don't matter what they believe.
Before you can investigate something there must be some evidence that it exists.

Do you have evidence that God or superior consciousness or supernatural exist?

The evidence of that is what will hopefully be discovered. The path to scientific evidence of that: begins with first understanding human consciousness, and the physics of thoughts.
That is something we can study towards that end [of understanding superior consciousness].

Do you have evidence that God or superior consciousness or supernatural exist?

If you do not have evidence that God or superior consciousness or supernatural even exist then there is NOTHING to investigate.

I believe very strongly that grichnixousness exists.

How do you go about investigating grichnixousness?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 326 by tesla, posted 06-02-2011 4:43 PM tesla has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 330 by tesla, posted 06-02-2011 4:54 PM jar has responded

tesla
Member (Idle past 2284 days)
Posts: 1198
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 329 of 396 (618310)
06-02-2011 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 327 by Theodoric
06-02-2011 4:44 PM


Re: open minded debate
Knowing that CS will again mock me for this, I have to ask.
Do they believe there is evidence or is there evidence? Very much different things.

If there is evidence what is it?

You’re looking at the issue backwards. There currently isn't any scientific evidence. The question of this topic is 'how do we begin looking for it' (how do we do ID science)

The evidence may or may not be found, but is potentially found by understanding the physics behind consciousness.

This is a path to scientific evidence.


keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides
This message is a reply to:
 Message 327 by Theodoric, posted 06-02-2011 4:44 PM Theodoric has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 334 by Theodoric, posted 06-02-2011 5:59 PM tesla has acknowledged this reply

tesla
Member (Idle past 2284 days)
Posts: 1198
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 330 of 396 (618311)
06-02-2011 4:54 PM
Reply to: Message 328 by jar
06-02-2011 4:52 PM


Re: open minded debate
If you do not have evidence that God or superior consciousness or supernatural even exist then there is NOTHING to investigate.

Do you have evidence that dark matter exists? oh I guess that means there is nothing to investigate then huh?


keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides
This message is a reply to:
 Message 328 by jar, posted 06-02-2011 4:52 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 331 by jar, posted 06-02-2011 5:03 PM tesla has responded

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