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Author Topic:   So Just How is ID's Supernatural-based Science Supposed to Work? (SUM. MESSAGES ONLY)
Scienctifictruths
Member (Idle past 1126 days)
Posts: 32
Joined: 05-30-2011


Message 346 of 396 (618351)
06-02-2011 8:23 PM
Reply to: Message 317 by tesla
06-02-2011 12:13 PM


Re: open minded debate
Tesla you seem to keep skipping over my main points.

1)How would we test these occurrences?
2)How would we know what occurrences to test?
3)How would we falsify such occurrences?

And I'm sorry but what you said earlier is completely incorrect, we do go under the assumption that out theorem's are wrong, this is simply how Science works. We would not assert that the existence of a tree is incorrect, but anything that must be inferred through testing or falsification is assumed to be false (for reasons of progress).

Psychology is more than the interpretation of thoughts, it's the understanding, mapping and break down of brain functions. My cousin has her PHD in Psychology and could easily attest to this. But yes for the most part Psychology deals with behavior, just as it deals with brain functions.

Well first of all you have to define consciousness, which (although I'm sure you'll give some cryptic esoteric definition no one else agrees with) is actually quite hard to pin down. And it very much changes from field to field. Most would just define it simply as being awake, the rest of our thoughts are just processes.

You seem to be talking about some transcendental force acting on our brains though. Such a thing is far beyond any Scientific means to measure, we have not the tools. And even if we were, what tools would we need? How the hell would we measure it?

Your statements are all axiomatic, the only one who understands them is you. In this respect I think Panda was right to criticize you. Your idea of how Science works not correct either, you seem to think we pick a topic out of a hat then discover means to measure it. "Hmm poltergeists today lads? Let's invent the ectoplasmic detectors we invented just for this purpose."

Once you actually begin to think about this from a Scientists perspective, then I'll listen. You have convinced me that the study of the Supernatural is somewhat related to ID (the one can propose the other), however you've yet to demonstrate once how we could test these things Scientifically (not just forming a theory).

Now I can't speak for the Physicists, but in the realm of Biology, if a theorem is not testable or falsifiable then it is rejected. Please, how would we test these Supernatural occurrences? How would we falsify them? You seem to be dodging these two questions.

[I appologize for bad spelling etc etc, early morning before my coffee]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 317 by tesla, posted 06-02-2011 12:13 PM tesla has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 348 by tesla, posted 06-02-2011 8:56 PM Scienctifictruths has responded

  
Scienctifictruths
Member (Idle past 1126 days)
Posts: 32
Joined: 05-30-2011


Message 347 of 396 (618353)
06-02-2011 8:38 PM
Reply to: Message 332 by tesla
06-02-2011 5:13 PM


Re: open minded debate
The evidence IS there, this is testable and falsifiable.

The gravitational pull is there for starters, this can be measure (I can gives you examples how if you wish). Not to mentioned the mass of the universe itself infers the existence of Dark Matter (see Topology).

If the evidence were not there the theory would have been chucked out the window long ago. Not to mention we can falsify this evidence; we can test it. I'll leave that to the more Physics orientated people though, as Physics is not my major field. Biological examples would be more my ally.

Oh, so you mean they said : hey there is something missing let’s give it a name and research it.

So absence of evidence justified looking.

Um...hello...are you in there?

No, but the fact that we could estimate and measure the mass via curvatures (etc etc) infers it's existence. Did we give it a name? Well we certainly weren't going to call it "that random heavy stuff in space" now where we?

The thing is we had a lot of evidence inferring the existence of Dark Matter before we began to research it further.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 332 by tesla, posted 06-02-2011 5:13 PM tesla has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 349 by tesla, posted 06-02-2011 8:58 PM Scienctifictruths has not yet responded

  
tesla
Member (Idle past 2345 days)
Posts: 1198
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 348 of 396 (618356)
06-02-2011 8:56 PM
Reply to: Message 346 by Scienctifictruths
06-02-2011 8:23 PM


Re: open minded debate
Now I can't speak for the Physicists, but in the realm of Biology, if a theorem is not testable or falsifiable then it is rejected. Please, how would we test these Supernatural occurrences? How would we falsify them? You seem to be dodging these two questions.

The premise is that understanding how human consciousness works will reveal superior consciousness if it exists. (or at least point mankind in the right direction towards that end.)

We need to understand how data is relayed and interpreted by the human brain. Knowing this information will allow us to explore the potential that information can be relayed and interpreted by the human brain from large distances ( or of course, not.)

Until we understand the realm of consciousness we can only guess at why people exhibit 'supernatural' abilities such as studied phenomenon as psychic abilities, or even inspirations coming from "God".

Instead of jumping to "let's falsify God" it would be more productive to approach the matter as : Many individuals claim to be able to "hear" God in the realm of consciousness. If we unravel how consciousness works by natural physics of how data is sent through the brain, we may be able to identify "superior intelligence, or read and interpret thoughts in such a way as to explain the phenomenon.

This later approach will excite funding and potentially solve one of the greatest mysteries of mankind.

1)How would we test these occurrences?
2)How would we know what occurrences to test?
3)How would we falsify such occurrences?

You test what you do know to discover what you do not know. We know the brain communicates, yet we do not have the capability to interpret this communication outside of the brain itself. Perhaps research into what is considered supernatural will reveal the actual physics behind brain function that can shed light on these currently “unidentifiable” phenomenon. (Or more to the point, supernatural funding to accelerate scientific understanding of consciousness at the physics level)

Falsification is not the goal, the goal is: understanding; which can lead to verification of falsification.


keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 346 by Scienctifictruths, posted 06-02-2011 8:23 PM Scienctifictruths has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 355 by Scienctifictruths, posted 06-03-2011 12:01 AM tesla has acknowledged this reply

tesla
Member (Idle past 2345 days)
Posts: 1198
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 349 of 396 (618357)
06-02-2011 8:58 PM
Reply to: Message 347 by Scienctifictruths
06-02-2011 8:38 PM


Re: open minded debate
There is enough belief that consciousness is outside of the realm of today’s science to validate research into the subject.


keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 347 by Scienctifictruths, posted 06-02-2011 8:38 PM Scienctifictruths has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 350 by Panda, posted 06-02-2011 9:01 PM tesla has responded

Panda
Member (Idle past 2001 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 350 of 396 (618358)
06-02-2011 9:01 PM
Reply to: Message 349 by tesla
06-02-2011 8:58 PM


Re: open minded debate
tesla writes:

There is enough belief that consciousness is outside of the realm of today’s science to validate research into the subject.


If consciousness is outside of the realm of today's science, what are you going to use to research consciousness?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 349 by tesla, posted 06-02-2011 8:58 PM tesla has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 351 by tesla, posted 06-02-2011 9:15 PM Panda has responded
 Message 352 by jar, posted 06-02-2011 9:21 PM Panda has acknowledged this reply

tesla
Member (Idle past 2345 days)
Posts: 1198
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 351 of 396 (618359)
06-02-2011 9:15 PM
Reply to: Message 350 by Panda
06-02-2011 9:01 PM


Re: open minded debate
If consciousness is outside of the realm of today's science, what are you going to use to research consciousness?

Build on what science does know about brain function and communication.

How is information sent and received in the brain? What is the role of electricity in the brain? What frequency is that electricity? Do the electrical impulses carry data like computers transfer data, or in some other way? How does the brain come up with ideas? Are idea’s chemically, or electrically generated? What area of the brain interprets data that has been stored? Could brain waves interpret data from an outside source besides its own brain tissue?

Etc. etc.


keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 350 by Panda, posted 06-02-2011 9:01 PM Panda has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 353 by Panda, posted 06-02-2011 9:31 PM tesla has responded

jar
Member
Posts: 31495
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 352 of 396 (618360)
06-02-2011 9:21 PM
Reply to: Message 350 by Panda
06-02-2011 9:01 PM


Re: open minded debate
Panda writes:

tesla writes:

There is enough belief that consciousness is outside of the realm of today’s science to validate research into the subject.


If consciousness is outside of the realm of today's science, what are you going to use to research consciousness?

What is even funnier is his assertion that "consciousness is outside of the realm of today’s science" yet if you go to Google Scholar and enter "consciousness" you get "Results 1 - 10 of about 1,950,000. (0.08 sec)"

One million nine hundred fifty thousand returns hardly looks like science knows that "consciousness" is outside the realm of today's science.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 350 by Panda, posted 06-02-2011 9:01 PM Panda has acknowledged this reply

Panda
Member (Idle past 2001 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 353 of 396 (618363)
06-02-2011 9:31 PM
Reply to: Message 351 by tesla
06-02-2011 9:15 PM


Re: open minded debate
tesla writes:

If consciousness is outside of the realm of today's science, what are you going to use to research consciousness?

Build on what science does know about brain function and communication.

How is information sent and received in the brain? What is the role of electricity in the brain? What frequency is that electricity? Do the electrical impulses carry data like computers transfer data, or in some other way? How does the brain come up with ideas? Are idea’s chemically, or electrically generated? What area of the brain interprets data that has been stored? Could brain waves interpret data from an outside source besides its own brain tissue?

Etc. etc.


How are you going to look or test for any of those things?

Can you give an actual example of how you might research consciousness?
Please describe the process you would use.
(Remember that you can't use science as you've already shown that consciousness is beyond the realm of today's science.)

Edited by Panda, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 351 by tesla, posted 06-02-2011 9:15 PM tesla has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 354 by tesla, posted 06-02-2011 9:48 PM Panda has responded

tesla
Member (Idle past 2345 days)
Posts: 1198
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 354 of 396 (618366)
06-02-2011 9:48 PM
Reply to: Message 353 by Panda
06-02-2011 9:31 PM


Re: open minded debate
(Remember that you can't use science as you've already shown that consciousness is beyond the realm of today's science.)

consciousness is only beyond todays science because it does not have accelerated funding for its research.

It is currently researched quite well, but it could do better.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/...03/may/08/lastword.neuroscience


keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 353 by Panda, posted 06-02-2011 9:31 PM Panda has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 357 by Panda, posted 06-03-2011 6:35 AM tesla has acknowledged this reply
 Message 359 by Panda, posted 06-03-2011 9:54 AM tesla has responded

Scienctifictruths
Member (Idle past 1126 days)
Posts: 32
Joined: 05-30-2011


Message 355 of 396 (618378)
06-03-2011 12:01 AM
Reply to: Message 348 by tesla
06-02-2011 8:56 PM


Re: open minded debate
If you started by saying something similar to your previous post we could have saved a hell of a lot of time you do realize? Your post (in reference to Scientific means) didn't really make sense prior to this one, this post seems to be a semi-Rosetta stone of sorts really.

The premise is that understanding how human consciousness works will reveal superior consciousness if it exists. (or at least point mankind in the right direction towards that end.)

We need to understand how data is relayed and interpreted by the human brain. Knowing this information will allow us to explore the potential that information can be relayed and interpreted by the human brain from large distances ( or of course, not.)

Until we understand the realm of consciousness we can only guess at why people exhibit 'supernatural' abilities such as studied phenomenon as psychic abilities, or even inspirations coming from "God".

Instead of jumping to "let's falsify God" it would be more productive to approach the matter as : Many individuals claim to be able to "hear" God in the realm of consciousness. If we unravel how consciousness works by natural physics of how data is sent through the brain, we may be able to identify "superior intelligence, or read and interpret thoughts in such a way as to explain the phenomenon.

This later approach will excite funding and potentially solve one of the greatest mysteries of mankind.

You test what you do know to discover what you do not know. We know the brain communicates, yet we do not have the capability to interpret this communication outside of the brain itself. Perhaps research into what is considered supernatural will reveal the actual physics behind brain function that can shed light on these currently “unidentifiable” phenomenon. (Or more to the point, supernatural funding to accelerate scientific understanding of consciousness at the physics level)

Falsification is not the goal, the goal is: understanding; which can lead to verification of falsification.

Scientists are doing quite a bit of research into Consciousness (specifically in the realm of Psychology) already. It would be much easier if you defined your definition of Consciousness as well. Consciousness to the majority of Scientists simply means awake or not sleeping.

We're trying to understand how data is relayed and interpreted as well, see the following:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/...ases/2009/12/091227212312.htm


This message is a reply to:
 Message 348 by tesla, posted 06-02-2011 8:56 PM tesla has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
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Scienctifictruths
Member (Idle past 1126 days)
Posts: 32
Joined: 05-30-2011


Message 356 of 396 (618379)
06-03-2011 12:02 AM
Reply to: Message 355 by Scienctifictruths
06-03-2011 12:01 AM


Re: open minded debate
No Scientist would have any problem with what you're proposing thus far. I would theorize that when further research is done on these topics in the realms of Psychology and Neuroscience theories will be united creating a further understanding of how the human brain works (I'm not sure if this is what you mean by consciousness or not).

There is research being put into understanding why these phenomena take place as well, you linked some earlier under the heading of Parapsychology. However this is (for the most part) understanding how our brains can misinterpret signals and information creating such visions in our head, or what makes us create false images (the ideas behind these have the potential to be falsified at later dates upon further research).

Supernatural abilities well, here Scientists will have a problem. How first do you determine a supernatural ability? Given your definition Scientists don't understand 100% of what goes on (neurologically) when using the bathroom, is this then a Supernatural ability? Define Supernatural Abilities if you will.

No one would say "let's falsify God" We're talking specifically about Intelligent Design here. Even more specifically we're talking about Intelligent Design in the absence of Evolution (i.e. a 6 day creation period, a 10,000 year existence).

"If we unravel how consciousness works by natural physics of how data is sent through the brain, we may be able to identify "superior intelligence, or read and interpret thoughts in such a way as to explain the phenomenon."

I pretty much completely agree with you here. Except I don't know what you mean by "Superior Intelligence". Stephen Hawking's intelligence is superior to mine, I don't suggest cracking his head open though.

The problem is what you're explaining right there can be measured naturally, we already have a basic understanding of memory/information transference within the brain. See we can actually touch feel and study the brain, and even if we couldn't we could infer it's existence through basic study of human and animal behavior. How would we study poltergeists? We can't exactly trap one and ask it questions. We can understand perhaps why our brains create such images, but if anything this (given current research) would falsify the idea of people actually seeing ghosts. But at this point we cannot falsify such evidence so we must simply say "we don't know".

I somewhat agree with you, we can understand how we perceive these things, and a lot of research IS being done on this. We however cannot study anything ethereal or transcendental. Perhaps one day we can. I don't think any Scientist would say beyond a shadow of a doubt that there is no God, no Leprechauns and no Flying Unicorns, but the fact that WE have not seen or observed these occurrences makes them questionable. I would also say that it seems very unlikely that such occurrences are of some ethereal or transcendental nature.

"Falsification is not the goal, the goal is: understanding; which can lead to verification of falsification." That really depends on the research, if there is any evidence leading us to a specific conclusion then this evidence MUST be presented before peers in an attempt to falsify the evidence, this is how Science works my friend.

Again I apologize for the grammar, I was in a hurry when writing this.

Edited by Scienctifictruths, : Message did not go through previously

Edited by Scienctifictruths, : Wrong term used, event instead of ability.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 355 by Scienctifictruths, posted 06-03-2011 12:01 AM Scienctifictruths has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 358 by tesla, posted 06-03-2011 9:42 AM Scienctifictruths has responded

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 2001 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 357 of 396 (618388)
06-03-2011 6:35 AM
Reply to: Message 354 by tesla
06-02-2011 9:48 PM


Re: open minded debate
tesla writes:

(Remember that you can't use science as you've already shown that consciousness is beyond the realm of today's science.)


consciousness is only beyond todays science because it does not have accelerated funding for its research.

It is currently researched quite well, but it could do better.


How could it do better?
How can it be researched at all?
As you asserted: consciousness is beyond the realm of today's science.

If consciousness is outside of the realm of today's science, what are you going to use to research consciousness?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 354 by tesla, posted 06-02-2011 9:48 PM tesla has acknowledged this reply

tesla
Member (Idle past 2345 days)
Posts: 1198
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 358 of 396 (618411)
06-03-2011 9:42 AM
Reply to: Message 356 by Scienctifictruths
06-03-2011 12:02 AM


Re: open minded debate
There is research being put into understanding why these phenomena take place as well, you linked some earlier under the heading of Parapsychology. However this is (for the most part) understanding how our brains can misinterpret signals and information creating such visions in our head, or what makes us create false images (the ideas behind these have the potential to be falsified at later dates upon further research).

Research takes funding. Those funding have some direction and control over the research.

Hypothetically, if a recognized University offered to the world:

"We have a proposal on the table to research how consciousness works at the physics level to give insight into supernatural phenomenon in the hopes to understand how God could be communicating. If this is an area that the public would like scientifically explored, we ask for funding for the project"

If successful and hundreds of millions pour in for research, Then there will be a lot to gain.

Psychology isn't where I’m going with this; psychology isn’t the physics of brain cell function. The brain runs on electrical impulses in conjunction with chemical reactions. Which parts of these brain activities transfer information, and how do we intercept that information and decode it to view 'thoughts'?

But without the premise of doing the research specifically to understand how a greater consciousness could be communicating, it’s unlikely to receive any funding from the religious community. (Which are also supported by many major companies.)

I believe a lot of government funding is for potential military usage and population control. After all, if they could plant propaganda on the subconscious level effectively they probably will.

So to recap:

Recognizing supernatural phenomenon 'could' be explained by understanding the human brain 'could' be a source of income to accelerate research into the brain; which would only benefit mankind.


keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides

This message is a reply to:
 Message 356 by Scienctifictruths, posted 06-03-2011 12:02 AM Scienctifictruths has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 360 by jar, posted 06-03-2011 9:55 AM tesla has responded
 Message 365 by Scienctifictruths, posted 06-03-2011 10:18 AM tesla has responded
 Message 372 by Taq, posted 06-03-2011 11:46 AM tesla has acknowledged this reply

Panda
Member (Idle past 2001 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 359 of 396 (618412)
06-03-2011 9:54 AM
Reply to: Message 354 by tesla
06-02-2011 9:48 PM


Re: open minded debate
Ah...I see.
When someone asks you a question that points out the flaws in your logic, your response is to ignore the question.
An effective but disingenuous technique.

As someone from this forum previously pointed out: refusing to answer direct questions is a sign of lying.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 354 by tesla, posted 06-02-2011 9:48 PM tesla has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 361 by tesla, posted 06-03-2011 10:01 AM Panda has responded

jar
Member
Posts: 31495
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 360 of 396 (618413)
06-03-2011 9:55 AM
Reply to: Message 358 by tesla
06-03-2011 9:42 AM


a nonsense research proposal
tesla writes:


Hypothetically, if a recognized University offered to the world:

"We have a proposal on the table to research how consciousness works at the physics level to give insight into supernatural phenomenon in the hopes to understand how God could be communicating. If this is an area that the public would like scientifically explored, we ask for funding for the project"

Sorry but what is a supernatural phenomenon?

Is there any evidence such a thing exists?

Is there any evidence that there is some God or that that God communicates with anyone?

I think such a proposal would and should simply be met with laughter.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 358 by tesla, posted 06-03-2011 9:42 AM tesla has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 362 by tesla, posted 06-03-2011 10:03 AM jar has responded

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