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Author Topic:   So Just How is ID's Supernatural-based Science Supposed to Work? (SUM. MESSAGES ONLY)
tesla
Member (Idle past 2286 days)
Posts: 1198
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 361 of 396 (618415)
06-03-2011 10:01 AM
Reply to: Message 359 by Panda
06-03-2011 9:54 AM


Re: open minded debate
Ah...I see.
When someone asks you a question that points out the flaws in your logic, your response is to ignore the question.
An effective but disingenuous technique.

I have already answered your questions in other posts. Read my last post to scientific. If you leave me nothing to discuss, but only something to bicker, I choose to acknowledge and not bicker.


keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides
This message is a reply to:
 Message 359 by Panda, posted 06-03-2011 9:54 AM Panda has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 369 by Panda, posted 06-03-2011 11:15 AM tesla has responded

tesla
Member (Idle past 2286 days)
Posts: 1198
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 362 of 396 (618416)
06-03-2011 10:03 AM
Reply to: Message 360 by jar
06-03-2011 9:55 AM


Re: a nonsense research proposal
Sorry but what is a supernatural phenomenon?

Is there any evidence such a thing exists?

Words represent something. Maybe you should define the words?


keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides
This message is a reply to:
 Message 360 by jar, posted 06-03-2011 9:55 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 363 by hooah212002, posted 06-03-2011 10:13 AM tesla has responded
 Message 364 by jar, posted 06-03-2011 10:17 AM tesla has acknowledged this reply

hooah212002
Member (Idle past 51 days)
Posts: 3183
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 363 of 396 (618422)
06-03-2011 10:13 AM
Reply to: Message 362 by tesla
06-03-2011 10:03 AM


Re: a nonsense research proposal
You've been asked for evidence and the only such thing you've provided has been belief; as if personal belief is sufficient evidence for anything other than........personal belief. Billions of people believe in Santa Clause, should there be scientific inquiry into a fat man in a red suit or into whether reindeer can actually fly?

You do realize there are private religious funds that are tax free, right? I GUARANTEE you that if some religious group did some actual science and found actual evidence for any god(s) or supernatural ANYTHING, the scientific community would go nuts and more funding would be poured their way. However, as it stands now, the religious groups choose that HAVE the funds choose to build theme parks......

Secondly, I must ask: are you a follower of Deepak Chopra or perhaps Chopra himself? You "woo-woo" sounds very Chopra-esk


"What can be asserted without proof, can be dismissed without proof."-Hitch.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 362 by tesla, posted 06-03-2011 10:03 AM tesla has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 366 by Scienctifictruths, posted 06-03-2011 10:22 AM hooah212002 has responded
 Message 373 by tesla, posted 06-03-2011 1:38 PM hooah212002 has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31180
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 364 of 396 (618423)
06-03-2011 10:17 AM
Reply to: Message 362 by tesla
06-03-2011 10:03 AM


Re: a nonsense research proposal
tesla writes:

Sorry but what is a supernatural phenomenon?

Is there any evidence such a thing exists?

Words represent something. Maybe you should define the words?

I would be happy to if there was some evidence such a thing existed so I could try to describe it.

Did you not post:

tesla writes:

"We have a proposal on the table to research how consciousness works at the physics level to give insight into supernatural phenomenon in the hopes to understand how God could be communicating. If this is an area that the public would like scientifically explored, we ask for funding for the project"

Note the underlined words.

You are making an assertion that supernatural phenomenon exist and that God communicates.

They are YOUR assertions.

I am simply asking for evidence at least comparable to what has been seen for Dark Matter that such critters even exist.

Unless there is some evidence something exists, how can one research it?


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 362 by tesla, posted 06-03-2011 10:03 AM tesla has acknowledged this reply

Scienctifictruths
Member (Idle past 1067 days)
Posts: 32
Joined: 05-30-2011


Message 365 of 396 (618424)
06-03-2011 10:18 AM
Reply to: Message 358 by tesla
06-03-2011 9:42 AM


Re: open minded debate
Research takes funding. Those funding have some direction and control over the research.

Hypothetically, if a recognized University offered to the world:

"We have a proposal on the table to research how consciousness works at the physics level to give insight into supernatural phenomenon in the hopes to understand how God could be communicating. If this is an area that the public would like scientifically explored, we ask for funding for the project"

If successful and hundreds of millions pour in for research, Then there will be a lot to gain.

Psychology isn't where I’m going with this; psychology isn’t the physics of brain cell function. The brain runs on electrical impulses in conjunction with chemical reactions. Which parts of these brain activities transfer information, and how do we intercept that information and decode it to view 'thoughts'?

But without the premise of doing the research specifically to understand how a greater consciousness could be communicating, it’s unlikely to receive any funding from the religious community. (Which are also supported by many major companies.)

I believe a lot of government funding is for potential military usage and population control. After all, if they could plant propaganda on the subconscious level effectively they probably will.

So to recap:

Recognizing supernatural phenomenon 'could' be explained by understanding the human brain 'could' be a source of income to accelerate research into the brain; which would only benefit mankind.

At the Physics level? I'm somewhat doubting the human brain would be dense enough to imply anything Topological so I have to ask exactly what you mean. You really have to define what you mean by "greater consciousness" because given my understanding (of consciousness being a state of awareness) all we would have to do to reach a greater consciousness is to dose up on coffee....

You propose how we would present the research to the world, how would we study it? You say we have to look into "greater consciousness" but what is that exactly?

We can poor all the money we want into it, but if we don't understand what it is we're actually researching it'll be rather pointless.

Psychology may not be where you're going with this, but it very much looks like what you're referring to. The Physics of brain cell function? Please elaborate.

Which parts of these brain activities transfer information, and how do we intercept that information and decode it to view 'thoughts'?

Activities are the events that occur, it's the processes and functions that transfer information. Again understanding how memory works, how thoughts work and thought transference are being studied in both the fields of Psychology & Neuroscience. I really fail to see where Physics could fit in here.

Your proposition may sounds good, but it really has no foundation. We wouldn't know what to measure or how to measure it. Greater consciousness? Well if it's something that transcends the very brain itself (and the natural world) then I fail to see what we could actually use to extrapolate information to study it.

Perhaps your theory might work, perhaps I'm just misunderstanding you. But at the moment it's sounding very much like Pseudoscience. Correct me if I'm wrong of course, I'm just really struggling to see exactly what you're getting here. A lot of your terms appear to be null sets (of no value;i.e. greater consciousness) which makes it harder.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 358 by tesla, posted 06-03-2011 9:42 AM tesla has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 374 by tesla, posted 06-03-2011 1:43 PM Scienctifictruths has responded

  
Scienctifictruths
Member (Idle past 1067 days)
Posts: 32
Joined: 05-30-2011


Message 366 of 396 (618425)
06-03-2011 10:22 AM
Reply to: Message 363 by hooah212002
06-03-2011 10:13 AM


Re: a nonsense research proposal
Deepak Chopra? Is he the Pseudoscience\healer guy?

Edited by Scienctifictruths, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 363 by hooah212002, posted 06-03-2011 10:13 AM hooah212002 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 367 by hooah212002, posted 06-03-2011 10:39 AM Scienctifictruths has responded

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 51 days)
Posts: 3183
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 367 of 396 (618432)
06-03-2011 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 366 by Scienctifictruths
06-03-2011 10:22 AM


Re: a nonsense research proposal
Yes. He is infamous for touting how physics can understand/study consciousness. Yet, he knows fuck-all about physics.

Here is a good video that shows the quackery of Chopra:


"What can be asserted without proof, can be dismissed without proof."-Hitch.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 366 by Scienctifictruths, posted 06-03-2011 10:22 AM Scienctifictruths has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 368 by Scienctifictruths, posted 06-03-2011 11:03 AM hooah212002 has acknowledged this reply

  
Scienctifictruths
Member (Idle past 1067 days)
Posts: 32
Joined: 05-30-2011


Message 368 of 396 (618441)
06-03-2011 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 367 by hooah212002
06-03-2011 10:39 AM


Re: a nonsense research proposal
I threw up slightly in my mouth when he mentioned the use of transcendent forces working within Evolution. Creationists actually genuinely believe that we think something similar, now I know at least where it comes from.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 367 by hooah212002, posted 06-03-2011 10:39 AM hooah212002 has acknowledged this reply

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 1942 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 369 of 396 (618448)
06-03-2011 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 361 by tesla
06-03-2011 10:01 AM


Re: open minded debate
tesla writes:

Ah...I see.
When someone asks you a question that points out the flaws in your logic, your response is to ignore the question.
An effective but disingenuous technique.

I have already answered your questions in other posts. Read my last post to scientific. If you leave me nothing to discuss, but only something to bicker, I choose to acknowledge and not bicker.


No, you have not answered the question.
Your reply to Scienctifictruths was about funding.

As I asked previously:

If consciousness is outside of the realm of today's science, what are you going to use to research consciousness?
Can you give an actual example of how you might research consciousness?
Please describe the process you would use.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 361 by tesla, posted 06-03-2011 10:01 AM tesla has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 375 by tesla, posted 06-03-2011 1:47 PM Panda has responded

Taq
Member
Posts: 7997
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 370 of 396 (618453)
06-03-2011 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 308 by tesla
06-01-2011 6:29 PM


Re: open minded debate
Unexplained, currently unexplainable, and considered by many to be Supernatural.

How do we determine if something will always be unexplainable?

Also, when someone says that an event was caused by the Supernatural they are claiming that they DO HAVE AN EXPLANATION. That it IS EXPLAINED. So something can not be supernatural and unexplained at the same time.

Supernatural as define as: considered beyond the scope of science and the natural order.

However, supernatural is not defined as unexplained. The supernatural is an explanation in itself.

For example, if a jet is flying at supersonic speeds does that mean it is flying at unexplained speeds?

I have no idea to what you’re referencing. I said in post 271:

"The events are not fictional. Our ability to explain supernatural events can be considered fictional. But so can: dark matter, big bang theory, string theory, chaos theory, and any other theory not proven."

You are equating dark matter with the supernatural, are you not?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 308 by tesla, posted 06-01-2011 6:29 PM tesla has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 376 by tesla, posted 06-03-2011 1:55 PM Taq has not yet responded

Taq
Member
Posts: 7997
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.8


(1)
Message 371 of 396 (618454)
06-03-2011 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 336 by tesla
06-02-2011 6:40 PM


Re: open minded debate
http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/...ies/imagine/dark_matter.html

"The search for the nature of dark matter is a very active field in astronomy and physics. Scientists do not know what it is made of , but they are investigating a number of possibilities."

I am aware of the nature of dark matter. No one has any idea why the 'apparent' mass discrepancy. That is why they are doing research

I will try to use dark matter as an example of how science works in order to further this discussion.

When astronomers looked at spiral galaxies they noticed that the spin rates of the galaxies did not match up with the mass as measured by luminous matter (the matter that absorbs and emits light).

Now, how would supernatural research address this problem? Well, we could profer the idea that God was slowing them down. So what experiments could we run to test this idea? What testable hypotheses could we put forth? How would these hypotheses be falsifiable? IOW, how does supernaturalism work as part of the scientific method, from hypothesis through testing to making conlcusions? Let's break this down:

1. Observation: The spin rate of galaxies is slower than expected given the amount of luminous matter in the galaxy.

2. Hypothesis:

So what is the supernatural hypothesis? How is it testable and falsifiable?

The point is understanding consciousness being a worthwhile endeavor to understand and potentially discover the existence of supreme being and currently considered supernatural behaviors that relate to consciousness.

So what hypotheses will we be testing in this research? How is the hypothesis falsifiable?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 336 by tesla, posted 06-02-2011 6:40 PM tesla has acknowledged this reply

Taq
Member
Posts: 7997
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 372 of 396 (618457)
06-03-2011 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 358 by tesla
06-03-2011 9:42 AM


Re: open minded debate
Research takes funding. Those funding have some direction and control over the research.

What experiments is this funding going to pay for? What observations from these experiments would falsify or confirm the supernatural?

It is not enough to say "fund research". You need to be specific as to the experiments that will be done and the expected/falsifying results.

But without the premise of doing the research specifically to understand how a greater consciousness could be communicating, it’s unlikely to receive any funding from the religious community.

What research could be done? What are the experiments?

Did it ever occur to you that no research is being funded because there is nothing scientific to do research on?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 358 by tesla, posted 06-03-2011 9:42 AM tesla has acknowledged this reply

tesla
Member (Idle past 2286 days)
Posts: 1198
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 373 of 396 (618494)
06-03-2011 1:38 PM
Reply to: Message 363 by hooah212002
06-03-2011 10:13 AM


Re: a nonsense research proposal
You've been asked for evidence and the only such thing you've provided has been belief

Since no evidence currently exists that is scientifically acceptable for providing real scientific answers for supernatural phenomenon, I have supplied a path that may reveal the truth of how many supernatural events take place.
The evidence that unexplainable supernatural events take place and apparently have a connection to the brain is enough reason to validate research into the subject via true science.
That [The evidence that unexplainable supernatural events] evidence is mainly the beliefs of the majority of mankind on this planet that they have communicable abilities with God, have seen ‘Ghosts’, and then there are those who exhibit paranormal capabilities statistically relevant and apparently supernatural because of science’s limited ability to explain such phenomenon.


keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides
This message is a reply to:
 Message 363 by hooah212002, posted 06-03-2011 10:13 AM hooah212002 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 377 by hooah212002, posted 06-03-2011 5:56 PM tesla has acknowledged this reply

tesla
Member (Idle past 2286 days)
Posts: 1198
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 374 of 396 (618496)
06-03-2011 1:43 PM
Reply to: Message 365 by Scienctifictruths
06-03-2011 10:18 AM


Re: open minded debate
Activities are the events that occur, it's the processes and functions that transfer information. Again understanding how memory works, how thoughts work and thought transference are being studied in both the fields of Psychology & Neuroscience. I really fail to see where Physics could fit in here.

All natural things are bound by physics. If science cannot "read and interpret thoughts, as they happen" Then they do not have enough understanding and need to research how the brain relays information and comes up with ideas.

Since science cannot do that: research into the field would be useful.


keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides
This message is a reply to:
 Message 365 by Scienctifictruths, posted 06-03-2011 10:18 AM Scienctifictruths has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 379 by Scienctifictruths, posted 06-03-2011 8:37 PM tesla has responded

tesla
Member (Idle past 2286 days)
Posts: 1198
Joined: 12-22-2007


Message 375 of 396 (618498)
06-03-2011 1:47 PM
Reply to: Message 369 by Panda
06-03-2011 11:15 AM


Re: open minded debate
If consciousness is outside of the realm of today's science, what are you going to use to research consciousness?
Can you give an actual example of how you might research consciousness?
Please describe the process you would use.

I would hire the top brain experts and ask them what they needed to begin experiments to further understand how thoughts are interpreted and relayed within the brain.


keep your mind from this way of enquiry, for never will you show that not-being is
~parmenides
This message is a reply to:
 Message 369 by Panda, posted 06-03-2011 11:15 AM Panda has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 378 by Panda, posted 06-03-2011 7:45 PM tesla has acknowledged this reply

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