General discussion of moderation procedures: The Consequtive Consecution

Perhaps you would accept a moderator role at EvC Forum?

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

Hi Buzsaw,Yes, I would like you to try moderating, but the email failure has me concerned. Could you try sending the email again to admin@? Thanks! When we can exchange email then we can discuss the moderator role.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

My advice is to let it go. The moderators don't seem to see it your way, and they're not much interested in putting more time into this. You can continue pushing on this, and maybe you'll find a sympathetic moderator, but maybe they'll just find it increasingly annoying. The plain truth about moderators is that are unpaid volunteers, they have limited time, and they're just imperfect people like everyone else.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

AdminJar and AdminRandman, please take the discussion there.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

Hi Trixie,Extensive efforts were made at finding common ground with AdminRandman in the administration forum. No progress was made. My post in the suspensions and bannings thread briefly summarizes what I saw as the primary issues, and to add just a little, it seemed as if Randman was intent on correcting past wrongs by retributive actions. To be fair to Randman, he honestly believed and still believes he was only being fair. I don't think he had any ill feelings toward you, but he interpreted something about your interaction with Faith as dishonest and off-topic. I won't try to speak for the other moderators, but for myself, though I tried hard I could not manage to push myself into a perspective where what you posted was anything more than polite, though at times pointed, inquiry. For this reason I can't speculate on where his characterizations of your posts as "taking a tone" and "playing games" might have originated from.I know Faith felt put upon because she thought my attempt at clarification was an admonishment, but I was only trying to make clear to her why people were confused when she claimed only to be quoting the Bible and not advocating a position. The mere fact that a passage was chosen and posted seems to most people to be making an interpretation and advocating a position. And this is a debate board, not a place where one would normally expect one's posts to be off-limits regarding raising issues and questions. But taking a position that others have difficulty understanding is not against the Forum Guidelines (well, it is against the Forum Guidelines if that's mostly what you do, I guess), and I saw as little to fault Faith for as yourself.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

An extremely common debate technique is to demonstrate that the opposing viewpoint contains contradictions. While one might object to a particular approach to presenting the contradictions, the debate technique itself is perfectly valid.One interpretation might be that Trixie was implying that you are someone who is happy when others suffer. While I can't speak for others, this wasn't an interpretation that occurred to me. I take it as a given that no one could take pleasure in another's suffering, and I assumed Trixie did, too. The contradiction Trixie presented that seemed to cause the most problems was how one could justify intervening in God imposed suffering, since it is God's will.If I could attempt my own answer to this one, even though in admin mode, God teaches us to love the sinner but not the sin. When we see suffering, even in someone we think a sinner, it is our duty as Christians to bring comfort and succor. God also counsels us to judge not, which tells us avoid conclusions about who is a sinner. There's also the Christian theological position of original sin, and so we are all sinners in God's eye, which says that casting accusations of sinner is a "pot calling the kettle black" kind of thing. It is probably also true that mere mortals cannot recognize which suffering has been visited by God and which hasn't.And so my own view of the topic is that although Trixie highlighted some perplexing contradictions, Christianity does appear to have some relatively straightforward answers.If I've somehow unintentionally (I swear) raised issues that merit a reply, please take it to the Man raised back to life in Jesus' name thread. I'll be glad to pick up the discussion as regular old Percy there, for what time it has left (it already has 284 messages).AbE: Is it time to give up on the "pot calling the kettle black" metaphor? My personal mental image of a "kettle" is of a big black cast-iron pot, but my image of a "pot" is of a sparkling stainless steel pot. Still, I'm old enough to understand the metaphor - there was still plenty of cast-iron around when I was a kid. Anyway, is this metaphor lost on many people, or is it still useful?This message has been edited by Admin, 01-10-2006 11:06 AM

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

I agree, randman should probably be let back in, but what do you mean about playing by different rules? If you mean the Forum Guidelines, then I can't compromise on those. They're kind of fundamental to constructive debate, and I don't see anything in them that is unfair to creationists. I'm prepared to resume temporary suspensions as a means of enforcement.But if you instead mean just two ways of looking at the world then I agree, there seem to be two different world views involved. I agree, and that's why we loosened up some months back. But what we've found is that some people, when given too free a hand, just continue pushing the boundaries. It depends on who's here at the time. The board keeps changing enforcement procedures in reaction to the problems caused by who's currently active, and that feels like the right thing to do. In some ways we're hindered by the board's current feature set for moderation, but that will be improving soon.Unless there is some discussion that develops about it, I'll restore randman's posting privileges around 4 PM ET.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

The thread in question is Are sexual prohibitions mixing religion and the law? in the [forum=-14] forum. Moderating the Coffee House forum is not as high a priority as the on-topic forums. The ptb favor neither viewpoint and really aren't well equipped for settling such spats. If you sincerely take an interest, why don't you try to make sense of the thread and post your opinions here of who is at fault and why, along with proposals for what actions should be taken, if any.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

The answers I would provide you are the same ones I always offer. When someone misrepresents your views in a thread just go ahead and correct them in the same thread. If the misrepresentation is off-topic, then simply say they're wrong about your views but because it's off-topic you can't get into the details, then move on. Moderators are volunteers whose time is limited, so it really helps when members possess some conflict resolution skills of their own.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

I'm afraid I've devoted all the time to this that I can afford. An extended exchange of posts isn't possible. You have some very fixed ideas for what will satisfy you, and back-and-forthing our way to something that makes you happy isn't possible for me right now. Perhaps one of the other moderators is willing to devote some time to your issues. AdminBen was interested at one point, perhaps he'll pick this up.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

Hi Holmes,Hmmm. Despite my best intentions not to let this happen, I seem to be the latest person drawn into a spat with you. I'm going to give you a 24 hour suspension, and when you return I hope you return in a frame of mind more conducive to discussion and compromise than to demands and criticism.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

I've probably said this before, but EvC Forum, indeed any board focused on controversial topics, is not a place for the perpetually disgruntled or easily offended. People who come here are expected to behave like adults who understand that:

• The world is not a fair place.
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• They are not the center of the universe.
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• There are other points of view than their own.
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• They should behave with politeness and decorum.
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• They can't always have their own way.
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• Authority should be treated with respect.

So if you're unhappy here at EvC Forum, please do not take it out on the moderators. The moderator team understands that to moderate is to err, and we welcome and solicit constructive feedback and criticism. The goal of EvC Forum and is the free and open exchange of ideas and opinions between creationists and evolutionists, so let's all pledge to do all we can to make this possible.I urge everyone, as I always do, to focus on the issues. Discussion boards are notorious for fostering misunderstandings. It is the nature of this media. Be prepared to clarify your points over and over and over again, and ignore the nagging feeling that you're being taken advantage of because much more often than not it's all in your mind.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

Could you edit a link to Jar's message into your post?

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

Perhaps the participants in this discussion could demonstrate the high standards and ideals embodied in the Forum Guidelines and not turn this into a pissing contest?Security is a legitimate concern. Those who wish to remain anonymous and who have personal information in their profile that would enable them to be identified are encouraged to change it. Of course, some members don't have this concern and use their real name, and there is nothing wrong with that. Fred Williams comes to mind. I personally feel that paranoia about being identified on the Internet is way overdone. I'm only anonymous because I'm paranoid, not because I think I have legitimate concerns.Members should be aware that even if you've selected the hidden option for your email address, moderators can still access it. If your email address is something like jester47@yahoo.com then that's pretty anonymous and there's nothing to be concerned about, but if your email is something like sebastian.dimworthy.of.seekonk.ma@yahoo.com, then perhaps you'd better change it.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

Time availability is relative to the problem being addressed. I can usually find time for a few posts. If you can find a way of interacting with moderators so as to reach a resolution within a few posts then I think you'll get more satisfactory results. As long as moderators feel that they have to set aside a couple hours a day over the course of a week in order to work through a problem with you, then you're not going to find very many volunteers.I think you need a thicker skin. You've got to let some problems go. The moderator team isn't perfect, either, including me. My advice, as always, is to just focus on the issues and ignore anything that appears like personal slights. This board isn't a marriage counseling service. Members who can't get along are encouraged to not converse with each other, or perhaps they can settle it via email. But take it somewhere else. The board is for discussion.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director