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Author Topic:   General discussion of moderation procedures: The Consecution
AdminBen
Inactive Member


Message 92 of 300 (240529)
09-05-2005 9:04 AM


Let's not go there
Hey all,

This thread is not a peanut gallery where we opine about moderator action. It's a place to lodge constructive criticism and concern about admin action.

If anybody has legitimate constructive criticism to post here about any admin action, please do so. Please try to legitimatize criticism by explaining WHY the moderator action was wrong, how you'd like it to be different, and WHY this difference is better.

To the rest of y'all hoodlums... please get off my thread. :)

Smiling but serious. Anybody not lodging a complaint at this point, get off this thread.


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Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Michael, posted 09-05-2005 12:33 PM AdminBen has responded
 Message 96 by wj, posted 09-08-2005 1:56 AM AdminBen has responded

AdminBen
Inactive Member


Message 94 of 300 (240592)
09-05-2005 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by Michael
09-05-2005 12:33 PM


Re: Let's not go there
Michael,

Fair enough complaint.

I do appreciate your support and the other comments. From my experience, however, these "discussions" always seem to take a turn away from discussion of moderation procedures, and into interpretation of the events, at exactly the point where posters stop trying to give their thoughts to the admins, and start responding to each other.

Michael writes:

Adminben's indefinite suspension of Omnivorous is excessive.

Sarcasm, right?

I was trying to avoid going down that path. To do that, I jumped the gun and went a bit far.

But the real crux of the problem is that they use up valuable posts with each reply. Which means, each time I get 1/300th of the way closer to having to change my sig again. That's always a real pisser.

Anyway. I appreciate your follow-up. You are right, I went beyond the bounds of the thread. I'll be conscious of that in the future.

Thanks.


Comments on moderation procedures (or wish to respond to admin messages)? - Go to:
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Michael, posted 09-05-2005 12:33 PM Michael has not yet responded

AdminBen
Inactive Member


Message 98 of 300 (241248)
09-08-2005 8:13 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by wj
09-08-2005 1:56 AM


Re: Let's not go there
Yes, I agree. Please see post 94.

Thanks.

This message has been edited by AdminBen, Thursday, 2005/09/08 05:13 AM


This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by wj, posted 09-08-2005 1:56 AM wj has not yet responded

AdminBen
Inactive Member


Message 141 of 300 (243061)
09-13-2005 5:27 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by Omnivorous
09-13-2005 5:05 PM


Re: My Apology and Some Thoughts
Nice to see you back, Omni. I hope things are going well for you in your recovery, as well as for your friends in their recovery. I think we can all share an understanding of the difficulty of both situations.

I wanted to address a couple of things you brought up in your post pertaining to moderation procedure. Since I am the admin that handled the situtation, I wanted to address your thoughts and give you an opportunity to discuss.

First, I wanted to mention... moderators are people too, and we react just as others. Your post actually upset me. "Indefinite suspension" simply means, "I know you need to be suspended, but for whatever reason, I don't know how long it should be for." Clearly your post called for you to be suspended, but I was simply too surprised and, honestly, upset, to address a rational thing like "length of time" right away. It took some cooling off before I could think. Then it took some discussion with other Admins to think of what might be appropriate.

I bring this up because I wanted to address your thought that you were treated "less than leniently" at the occasion. "Indefinite suspension" does not necessarily mean "a really long time." More accurate would be "not yet determined." I hope that can help address your initial concern when you were originally suspended.

Regardless, I'm glad to see your sincere apology, and I'm glad that taking some time to think about things helped you find another perspective on the situation. I think having a positive perspective on what goes on here really helps keep discussion at the right level and tone, so whenever I see it I feel that's a good thing.

I hope your recovery from surgery is going well, and that this board can serve as an interesting and fruitful way for you to spend some of your time during your recovery. See you around the boards, and again, welcome back.


Comments on moderation procedures (or wish to respond to admin messages)? - Go to:
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by Omnivorous, posted 09-13-2005 5:05 PM Omnivorous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by Omnivorous, posted 09-13-2005 5:58 PM AdminBen has responded

AdminBen
Inactive Member


Message 144 of 300 (243071)
09-13-2005 6:01 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by Omnivorous
09-13-2005 5:58 PM


Re: My Apology and Some Thoughts
It's not every day you can make an admin, especially one made out of iron, blush.

:o

I'm glad to hear things are getting along nicely.


Comments on moderation procedures (or wish to respond to admin messages)? - Go to:
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by Omnivorous, posted 09-13-2005 5:58 PM Omnivorous has not yet responded

AdminBen
Inactive Member


Message 175 of 300 (246819)
09-27-2005 8:29 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by Faith
09-27-2005 3:18 PM


Re: Ben: mutation thread
Faith,

Sure, thanks for being understanding. I am still trying to be ultra-conservative. I really think that's the best formula for success. Thanks for being willing to take my comments and suggestions for what they are--simply comments and suggestions on how we can continue to make this thing work.

Thanks also for your effort, and the effort of all those participating in the thread. I share nwr's sentiments about the effort and information in the thread, and I've learned a lot myself as well.

If you do have comments or suggestions in the future, I will be open to listening. So feel free to post them here anytime.

Ben


This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by Faith, posted 09-27-2005 3:18 PM Faith has not yet responded

AdminBen
Inactive Member


Message 205 of 300 (251117)
10-12-2005 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 202 by New Cat's Eye
10-12-2005 10:27 AM


Re: thread reopen request
Catholic Scientist,

Requests for thread reopenings should go to the "Thread Reopen Requests" thread. At first I thought you were complaining about how AdminPhat handled the situation. After reading the thread subtitle (somehow the last thing I read) I'm pretty sure you're just asking for the thread to be reopened.

Is that right?

Thanks.


Comments on moderation procedures (or wish to respond to admin messages)? - Go to:
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    This message is a reply to:
     Message 202 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-12-2005 10:27 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 213 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-12-2005 12:32 PM AdminBen has responded

    AdminBen
    Inactive Member


    Message 206 of 300 (251119)
    10-12-2005 11:28 AM
    Reply to: Message 203 by Faith
    10-12-2005 10:47 AM


    Re: thread reopen request
    Faith,

    Next time just let this request go; I think the admins can handle a simple reopen request. Whether you realize it or not, you basically used this response as a reason to discuss the topic in this thread. Just leave it to the admins next time; we'll take care of it.

    By the way, should I take your interest in admin processes to mean you're interested in becoming an admin? We definitely have room for a newbie to sift through PNTs... and restock the beer. Where are the AdminIRH's of yesteryear?

    Thanks.


    Comments on moderation procedures (or wish to respond to admin messages)? - Go to:
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    This message is a reply to:
     Message 203 by Faith, posted 10-12-2005 10:47 AM Faith has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 207 by Faith, posted 10-12-2005 11:50 AM AdminBen has responded

    AdminBen
    Inactive Member


    Message 208 of 300 (251134)
    10-12-2005 12:08 PM
    Reply to: Message 207 by Faith
    10-12-2005 11:50 AM


    Re: thread reopen request
    I don't think I'd make a very good admin, I'd be way too strict and always be second-guessing myself.

    Sounds familiar. PB is the only admin I know who maybe genuinely doesn't have a "strict" side--and he makes up for that with double-doses of second-guesses. But otherwise, I'm pretty sure everybody else knows how to truly be an ass. It's a gift, really.

    But what sort of training does a new admin get?

    I can barely even make sense out of this question. Training? Huh?

    I have absolutely no head for internet abbreviations like IRH. What does it mean?

    IrishRockHound. I believe AdminIRH is the one responsible for the empty fridge. Well... ignoring the fact that Jar and Nosy are the ones who raided it in the first place.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 207 by Faith, posted 10-12-2005 11:50 AM Faith has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 210 by Faith, posted 10-12-2005 12:18 PM AdminBen has responded

    AdminBen
    Inactive Member


    Message 211 of 300 (251140)
    10-12-2005 12:23 PM
    Reply to: Message 210 by Faith
    10-12-2005 12:18 PM


    Re: thread reopen request
    No guidelines? No page of instructions?

    Learn by example and by asking questions. The second-guessing is your "guideline." Experience on the board is your "page of instructions." And ready and willing colleagues make it all work.

    (By the way, my post about the thread reopen request was basically a thread-don't-reopen request that got out of hand.)

    I know. I try to be willing to step out of the way and let users inform each other... it's the whole "got out of hand" thing that drew my response. If you're going to step in, do it cleanly. Otherwise, stand aside. Every good admin has to have a strong set of admin pet peeves.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 210 by Faith, posted 10-12-2005 12:18 PM Faith has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 212 by Faith, posted 10-12-2005 12:28 PM AdminBen has responded
     Message 219 by Nighttrain, posted 10-12-2005 7:40 PM AdminBen has responded

    AdminBen
    Inactive Member


    Message 214 of 300 (251146)
    10-12-2005 12:33 PM
    Reply to: Message 212 by Faith
    10-12-2005 12:28 PM


    Re: thread reopen request
    Sure. It's not my job to recruit people; that's Moose's job. And it's totally up to you, of course.

    But what I do ask (we all ask, really) is that if you're not interested in being an admin, then try and stay conscious not to participate like an admin. Give us time to address the issues. I think sometimes you have a habit of addressing admin-type issues in the course of writing your flurries of replies. Try to stay conscious of it, and give the admins time to sift through things and address them ourselves. Even though it may seem like there's 1000 of us, we're still fairly slow in some cases.

    Thanks.


    Comments on moderation procedures (or wish to respond to admin messages)? - Go to:
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    This message is a reply to:
     Message 212 by Faith, posted 10-12-2005 12:28 PM Faith has not yet responded

    AdminBen
    Inactive Member


    Message 215 of 300 (251148)
    10-12-2005 12:41 PM
    Reply to: Message 213 by New Cat's Eye
    10-12-2005 12:32 PM


    Re: thread reopen request
    I cannot believe and am angered by Faith replying to the message and it took all of my willpower to not reply back which I realized would just bring the debate to this thread.

    I understand, and I REALLY appreciate that willpower. I'm addressing that issue with Faith now. Hopefully she'll understand that her reply to your post would be inappropriate as well. People should be able to request admin review of things without having regular users, especially those involved in the issues, following them.

    I do really appreciate your restraint in this case. That was the right thing to do.


    Comments on moderation procedures (or wish to respond to admin messages)? - Go to:
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    This message is a reply to:
     Message 213 by New Cat's Eye, posted 10-12-2005 12:32 PM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

    AdminBen
    Inactive Member


    Message 220 of 300 (251299)
    10-12-2005 8:14 PM
    Reply to: Message 219 by Nighttrain
    10-12-2005 7:40 PM


    Re: thread reopen request
    Haha I was actually thinking of starting a thread on that very subject... with the stipulation that admins themselves could not describe their pet peeves; users had to figure it out from observation.

    Here's a hint though: just about everything is covered in the special little box attached to this message which we call our "admin signature." Feel free to start calling it the "peeve box." Read it, understand it, and follow it, and you'll be our "little angel."


    Comments on moderation procedures (or wish to respond to admin messages)? - Go to:
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    This message is a reply to:
     Message 219 by Nighttrain, posted 10-12-2005 7:40 PM Nighttrain has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 221 by Nighttrain, posted 10-12-2005 9:03 PM AdminBen has not yet responded

    AdminBen
    Inactive Member


    Message 231 of 300 (251865)
    10-14-2005 8:03 PM


    Reply to robinrohan
    robinrohan writes:

    AdminBen writes:

    You're really far away from establishing the conclusion you're trying to. There's lots more to be said. And this is a nice, clean topic that easily spins off into another thread. It's already been suggested that you do so. Now let's make it really clear.

    Why are you picking on me, Ben?

    I don't mean to be picking on you RR. I have no interest in giving you trouble; I really appreciate the contributions you make here.

    That said, you have two traits that don't work well for me:

    1. You post off-topic
    2. When I suggest you to open a new topic, you never do.

    Certainly you're not alone in going off-topic. Certainly we don't keep all thread on topic. I tend to ask people to CREATE a new topic for off-topic discussion if:
    1. The original topic seems "important" to me.
    2. There's a lot of topical discussion, and the OT stuff is noise.
    3. The new topic is something I think that's important, and I want to see it as a PNT so more people can get involved in it.
    4. The OT stuff is not going to be resolved easily.
    4. The OT posts are pointless chatter.

    In this case, I saw this OT stuff as #3--important and #4--not resolved easily. I did my best to convey that. In fact, I've been biting my tongue not to comment to you or schraf about the subject, for those very reasons. I do cognitive research, RR--I know about those things.

    Unfortunately, I feel that you see admin action as "against you", and I find you are usually unwilling to take the suggestions. It's hard work for admins to comment--every comment takes a commitment to see it to the end. I don't want to deal with off-topic stuff; I only do it if I think it's important or useful. I have no interest in "picking on you." Really.

    If this explanation is not good enough for you, I would really appreciate to know why. I would really like for there to be a better interaction between us. You feel that I pick on you; I feel that you aren't cooperative.

    I'm happy to discuss it here. I hope you will post your honest thought here, so we can make an understanding.

    Thanks.

    This message has been edited by AdminBen, Friday, 2005/10/14 05:07 PM


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  • Replies to this message:
     Message 232 by robinrohan, posted 10-14-2005 10:58 PM AdminBen has responded
     Message 242 by nator, posted 10-15-2005 2:08 AM AdminBen has not yet responded

    AdminBen
    Inactive Member


    Message 233 of 300 (251885)
    10-14-2005 11:32 PM
    Reply to: Message 232 by robinrohan
    10-14-2005 10:58 PM


    Re: Reply to robinrohan
    robinrohan,

    For some reason I think you're reading me as both heavy-handed and arrogant. Maybe it's my bad-ass avatar. Go see my "regular" avatar; maybe that will help. Seriously, though, I don't mean to be either one of those things. Like I said, I do appreciate your contributions here, whether they be jokes, insightful questions, or poignant remarks. I'm not out to "get you". In fact, I went out of my way to tell you I thought you brought up an important issue, so much so that it belongs in it's own thread.

    Now if "cognitive research" is hard science, then fine. Obviously I have offended you, for which I apologize. But I didn't offend you on purpose.

    No, you absolutely didn't offend me at all. I'm not sure what I said that led you to think so. I actually DON'T think cognitive research is hard science, and that there are really critical differences in studies of human behavior and the human brain that put really important limitations to how "scientific" cognition can be. It's important to always recognize the limitations of the methodoligies we're doing.

    So for the 3rd time now... I thought you brought up a good question. Good job. Really, honestly.

    My original question had to do with the nature of the forum we were speaking on...

    What's wrong with all that?

    You're asking what's wrong with going off topic. Well,
    1. People who are interested in the discussion topics don't have an easy way to know that the topic is being discussed
    2. It can derail discussion of the original topic.
    3. It makes things really hard for people who come in later to read through the topic.

    As regards starting new topics, I don't want to start just any new topic. I want it to be something I've been thinking about for a while.

    If you're comfortable enough about a topic to ask a quesiton about it, or to respond to a post about it, then you should be comfortable enough to open a PNT. PNTs aren't so sacred. It's just a convenient way for admins to get well-formulated posts up on the board so that the first 10 posts of every thread aren't clarification questions.

    I'd really ask you to open new topics for off-topic discussions that are either important or aren't being resolved easily. When you don't, you just put the burden on somebody else to do it for you. Between posting twice on the other thread, twice here, and once to open the PNT, that's an hour of my time. You could have opened a PNT in 5 minutes.

    I opened up a PNT for the subject under discussion. It didn't even express an opinion. I just formulated a question and (because there was so much OT discussion) copied over some pertinent viewpoints.

    I don't know that I'm "off-topic" all the time, although I admit my mind tends to jump around some.

    I explicitly tried to insinuate that you're not more guilty than others. I really don't pick on you. Many times the admins just let people discuss OT, because the topics weren't well-defined to start with, because the original discussion ceased anyway, or because it's just not worth the trouble. This was a case where it really was worth the trouble.

    I'm sorry I'm having trouble communicating my true thoughts to you. I'll keep trying to be clearer; I would ask that you give me the benefit of the doubt. Try to understand my suggestions. If you want to comment or disagree, bring it to an admin thread, and we can talk about it anytime.

    Thanks.


    Comments on moderation procedures (or wish to respond to admin messages)? - Go to:
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    New Members: to get an understanding of what makes great posts, check out:

  • "Post of the Month" Forum
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    See also Forum Guidelines, Style Guides for EvC, and Assistance w/ Forum Formatting


  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 232 by robinrohan, posted 10-14-2005 10:58 PM robinrohan has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 234 by robinrohan, posted 10-14-2005 11:54 PM AdminBen has responded

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