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Author Topic:   Report discussion problems here: No.2
Bolder-dash
Member (Idle past 3630 days)
Posts: 983
From: China
Joined: 11-14-2009


Message 286 of 468 (549153)
03-04-2010 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 285 by Admin
03-02-2010 8:57 AM


Re: About Behavior in WooHoo! More idiots running the gub'ment.
Please, no replies in this thread. Please post your responses over at the Are mutations truly random or are they guided? thread. Please be aware that Bolder-dash has been suspended until April 1. --Admin
Here is your answer Taq...apparently the school principal is still taking sides:
You are confusing phenotype plasticity with evolution. They are not the same thing. Evolution does not occur to one individual during it's lifetime. Evolution occurs at the level of the population over generations.
Actually it only occurs through individuals. Individuals get the mutation (according to you) and they either pass it on or they don't. You are confusing the issue by trying to count a population as a thing. A population is an idea.
Several peer reviewed scientific articles have been cited by myself and others. Perhaps you should comment on those.
I did several times. Go back and read my posts instead of looking for ways to try to show you know something more than I. A study looking at bacteria does nothing to meet the criteria of creating a new form. What is the new form you are trying to demonstrate? If you believe that all information obtained from looking at a bacteria can apply to all of the living world, then I guess you think it would take 200,000 generations of an animal species to develop something as simple as a resistance to an illness. if it takes long for that, how long is it going to take to develop a system of sweat glands. or motor neurons in the brain that have thicker coatings of myelin in some regions and thinner regions in others, so that all incoming electronic messages are received at precisely the right time so as not to confuse the brain perceptions? Do you want to go by what bacteria tells us, or do you now wish to drop the evidence provided by bacterial study now-because we have studied billions and billions of generations of bacteria, and the rate of change is slow, not just slow, very slow. No, not just very slow-nonexistent.
No one is claiming that evolution is guided by random mutations.
Of course you don't claim this when its inconvenient to claim this-you throw it out and take it away when it suits your argument. Hiding from the need to explain things through random mutations doesn't make the problem disappear-you can't close your eyes and ignore it like hide and go seek.
You are confusing phenotype plasticity with evolution. They are not the same thing.
No, I am not confusing anything. I am saying if we want to go simply by what we can observe, this is all we observe-adaptations, adaptations, and more adaptations. We never observe new starting points for evolution.
If evolution were a process existing in all populations, why is it so hard to find evidences of these populations-split by their mutated and unmutated brothers, yet still possessing all the same features other than ONE new adaptive advantage that is creating new information?
As for the argument "they are still bacteria", it's nothing more than a ploy on your part to lessen the impact of evidence that shoots holes in your argument. The common ancestor of humans and chimps was an ape, and humans and chimps are still apes, so I would guess that you have no problem with humans and chimps sharing a common ancestor, right? Humans and bears are both mammals, as was their common ancestor. Just mammals turning into mammals. No problem, right? Humans and fish are both vertebrates, as was their common ancestor. Just vertebrates turning into vertebrates. You have no problem with this, right? Humans and amoebas are both euakaryotes, as was their common ancestor. Just eukaryotes turning into eukaryotes. Surely you have no problem with this, right?
This is just pure gibberish. The point of the discussion is to provide evidence that random mutations are causing life forms to be created. Those life forms can be entirely new creatures, or they can simply be entirely new features, like a gill or a horn. if horns formed from nothing, other than a small random mutation-why can't we see new examples of things similar to horns forming. Aren't there supposed to be millions of these things happening all the time. EITHER ADDRESS THIS QUESTION, OR YOU ARE SIMPLY AVOIDING THE ISSUE ENTIRELY, OR INTENTIONALLY OBFUSCATING.
I don't care how small or minor you want to call the initial process leading to new features, it still has to be big enough to cause some kind of advantage. It can't be microscopic, that won't provide reproductive success. And even if it was microscopic, in successive generation-if it is ever going to lead anywhere, it has to eventually be more than microscopic. So if evolutionary changes are ongoing forever, where are the changes that stared 100 years ago, or 1000 years ago, and are now in the second phase of their evolution? Are they starting to appear yet? Are there some individuals blessed with these new features, while others aren't? features? New features? Where are they? Dwarphism? is that how new features start? Whats the new feature?
How in the world can you have a theory that claims this accounts for everything, and then say you can not show even one?
We know that these mutations are random because of observations such as those in the Luria-Delbruck fluctuation experiment and the Lederbergs' plate replica experiment as I discussed above (and you ignored).
No, you know that some drug resistance mutations COULD possibly be random. You don't get to make wild assumptions based on one partial bit of knowledge, and call it a conclusion. Most of these mutations are deleterious anyway, and disappear rapidly when the pressure is gone. That certainly isn't going to form anything new.
That is bad science and bad logic.
Edited by Admin, : Add moderator request at top, fix last quote box.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 285 by Admin, posted 03-02-2010 8:57 AM Admin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 287 by Wounded King, posted 03-04-2010 11:23 AM Bolder-dash has not replied
 Message 289 by Admin, posted 03-04-2010 2:11 PM Bolder-dash has not replied

Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 287 of 468 (549155)
03-04-2010 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 286 by Bolder-dash
03-04-2010 11:04 AM


Disruptive troll
I don't really see the point in posting in a way which is only calculated to get you banned from the whole forum at least temporarily.
Are there still creationist sites where they are impressed if you come in whining about being banned even if you pull of childish BS like this? Is it EvolutionFairyTale?
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by Bolder-dash, posted 03-04-2010 11:04 AM Bolder-dash has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 288 by ZenMonkey, posted 03-04-2010 11:29 AM Wounded King has not replied

ZenMonkey
Member (Idle past 4511 days)
Posts: 428
From: Portland, OR USA
Joined: 09-25-2009


Message 288 of 468 (549158)
03-04-2010 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 287 by Wounded King
03-04-2010 11:23 AM


Re: Disruptive troll
If you don't let yourself get annoyed by him, Bolder-Dash is actually often very entertaining. I imagine him sounding exactly like Daffy Duck in a spluttering, incoherent rage.

I have no time for lies and fantasy, and neither should you. Enjoy or die.
-John Lydon

This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by Wounded King, posted 03-04-2010 11:23 AM Wounded King has not replied

Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 289 of 468 (549167)
03-04-2010 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 286 by Bolder-dash
03-04-2010 11:04 AM


Bolder-dash suspended for 4 weeks
Hi Bolder-dash,
You lost your posting permissions in the Biological Evolution forum because of your refusal to take discussion of your off-topic issues to this thread.
And now, no longer able to respond in the Biological Evolution forum, you're posting more off-topic responses here in a thread reserved for problems in discussion threads.
The Forum Guidelines are purely about the structure of the debate, such as following moderator requests, posting on topic, responding constructively, avoiding misrepresentation, and so forth. You can advocate any position you like, but you're asked to follow the Forum Guidelines while doing so. You're receiving moderation attention because of your failure to follow the Forum Guidelines.
Posting here was your opportunity to make your case for Forum Guidelines violations and poor moderation in the Are mutations truly random or are they guided? thread. For example, you claimed you were being told to go read a biology book, but I couldn't find where anyone had said that to you in that thread, so I asked you to be more accurate and specific. But you didn't do that. You instead came to this thread and posted off-topic. Again. Right after being requested to keep your participation on-topic.
This isn't the first time you've ignored the Forum Guidelines and moderator requests, and I can only conclude that you will continue to ignore requests to follow the Forum Guidelines, and so I'm suspending you for 4 weeks. See you next month.
Edited by Admin, : Grammar.
Edited by Admin, : Grammar.
Edited by Admin, : Spelling.
Edited by Admin, : Change title to be meaningful.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by Bolder-dash, posted 03-04-2010 11:04 AM Bolder-dash has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 290 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-04-2010 5:38 PM Admin has seen this message but not replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 290 of 468 (549187)
03-04-2010 5:38 PM
Reply to: Message 289 by Admin
03-04-2010 2:11 PM


Re: Bolder-dash suspended for 4 weeks
Well, who's going to annoy me now?
If no-one makes me cranky, I get all ... uh ... reasonable ... er ...
... hmm, maybe I'd better just sit quietly and think about this.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 289 by Admin, posted 03-04-2010 2:11 PM Admin has seen this message but not replied

Pauline
Member (Idle past 3736 days)
Posts: 283
Joined: 07-07-2008


(1)
Message 291 of 468 (549462)
03-07-2010 10:53 PM


What?
I really don't care a pinch about this, but my curiosity is peaked.
In my thread "Fine tuning/programming" (Biological Evolution), every single one of my posts is rated a 1? What's up with that? Did someone actually go through all my 36 posts and waste their time rating them 1's? This is idiotic. If you guys hate something, write about it, let me know why, take it in a sportive spirit, or just go home......what's with going around and doing stupid stuff like this? Childish time-wasters.
Okay. I'm done.
edit: I went back to it. The genius spared one post of mine. I wonder what I wrote that was not worthy of his hatred on that one.....or maybe it a combined effort of all the atheists, you rate the first five with 1's, it my turn tomorrow, its guy X's turn next sunday. Good job, guys. I give you a 99%. Next time, don't spare a single post, and you receive a 100%. Keep working. Maybe a mutation will help you evolve along the way.
Edited by Dr. Sing, : what should i say?

Replies to this message:
 Message 292 by Dr Jack, posted 03-08-2010 5:03 AM Pauline has not replied
 Message 293 by Huntard, posted 03-08-2010 5:14 AM Pauline has not replied
 Message 294 by Admin, posted 03-08-2010 8:32 AM Pauline has not replied

Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.7


Message 292 of 468 (549465)
03-08-2010 5:03 AM
Reply to: Message 291 by Pauline
03-07-2010 10:53 PM


Re: What?
The message rating system here is an embarassment. Our beloved admins have previously said it will be replaced with a better system real soon now. I can only hope it happens soon, or - at least - the current system gets disabled in the meantime.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 291 by Pauline, posted 03-07-2010 10:53 PM Pauline has not replied

Huntard
Member (Idle past 2296 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 293 of 468 (549468)
03-08-2010 5:14 AM
Reply to: Message 291 by Pauline
03-07-2010 10:53 PM


Re: What?
Yes, that's the problem with this system. People rate based on whether they like you and your position or not. Not really considering the actual quality of a post. (Which I must say, yours are usually well structured). The admins have said that it will be changed to a system to just rate "good" posts (like you can rate "good", "better" and "post of the month" type votes). That should remedy this kind of behaviour.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 291 by Pauline, posted 03-07-2010 10:53 PM Pauline has not replied

Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 294 of 468 (549479)
03-08-2010 8:32 AM
Reply to: Message 291 by Pauline
03-07-2010 10:53 PM


Re: What?
Hi Dr. Sing,
The other comments you received are correct, the system will eventually be replaced. A more accurate description is that the feature will be enhanced so that board administrators can choose from a range of possibilities. For this board I plan to choose an option that automates our Post of the Month process.
As to when this will happen, I can't be sure. It's just me coding away in my study, and right now my priority is on productization.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 291 by Pauline, posted 03-07-2010 10:53 PM Pauline has not replied

Pauline
Member (Idle past 3736 days)
Posts: 283
Joined: 07-07-2008


(1)
Message 295 of 468 (549569)
03-08-2010 8:17 PM


I agree that bias plays a BIG role in the user rating system on these forums. Which. isn't. impressive. at. all. But the Admins are working on a new, hopefully better system, so that's cool.
Thanks for your replies, guys.
Edited by Dr. Sing, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 303 by Dr Adequate, posted 03-21-2010 9:58 AM Pauline has not replied

ZenMonkey
Member (Idle past 4511 days)
Posts: 428
From: Portland, OR USA
Joined: 09-25-2009


Message 296 of 468 (549708)
03-10-2010 12:40 AM


Spam spam spam spam.
Message 1

I have no time for lies and fantasy, and neither should you. Enjoy or die.
-John Lydon

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 297 of 468 (551027)
03-20-2010 11:18 AM


I have to make a comment
Message 77
Look, Theo, if you are content in being complicit with murderers and rapists, have your fill.
Don't let your menstruation get in the way of a good debate. Get some super-absorbent pads (with wings), pop a few Midol, and get back out there.
I love a good argument, but is this needed?
Hyro is unable to make a substantial argument so he again(for the umpteenth time0 resorts to personal attacks.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

Replies to this message:
 Message 298 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-20-2010 1:37 PM Theodoric has replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 298 of 468 (551042)
03-20-2010 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 297 by Theodoric
03-20-2010 11:18 AM


Re: I have to make a comment
IMO, you come off like a bigger asshole than hyro.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 297 by Theodoric, posted 03-20-2010 11:18 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 299 by Theodoric, posted 03-20-2010 2:15 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 299 of 468 (551055)
03-20-2010 2:15 PM
Reply to: Message 298 by New Cat's Eye
03-20-2010 1:37 PM


Re: I have to make a comment
Because you don't like what I have to say?
Am I an asshole because my arguments are fallacious?
Or because I don't buy into the lame arguments?
How am I an asshole?
Am I accusing him of being a "woman"? That is offensive on so many levels.
Am I cursing him?
Please tell me where I am wrong or what is wrong with my arguments.
Oh, if you had anything you would have posted on that thread wouldn't you.
That you and Hyro think I am an asshole is a badge of honor.
How about arguing the topic not the person. Isn't that a forum rule?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 298 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-20-2010 1:37 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 300 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-20-2010 2:30 PM Theodoric has not replied

New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 300 of 468 (551057)
03-20-2010 2:30 PM
Reply to: Message 299 by Theodoric
03-20-2010 2:15 PM


Re: I have to make a comment
Because you don't like what I have to say?
Am I an asshole because my arguments are fallacious?
Or because I don't buy into the lame arguments?
Of course not. You're an asshole because of what you say and how you say it.
And its not any one thread in particular, I'm comparing the way both of you come off in general over the time that I've been reading your posts.
But lets stop discussing this further in this thread. I just wanted to share my opinion for your information.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 299 by Theodoric, posted 03-20-2010 2:15 PM Theodoric has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 301 by Hyroglyphx, posted 03-20-2010 9:43 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

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