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Author Topic:   About that Boat - Noah's Ark
NotSoBlindFaith
Inactive Junior Member


Message 276 of 296 (269561)
12-15-2005 2:01 AM
Reply to: Message 257 by Bonobojones
02-23-2005 5:38 PM


Re: Ark Design
I've said it before. If their calculations are so good, I'm sure they can get AiG to cough up the cash to build a replica, 8 people using hand tools, and set it afloat in the North Atlantic for a year. After all, replica ships are being built all the time all over the world.
The first thing you should realize is, Noah probably had more then 8 people working on the ark. Although only 8 people choose to go on the ark, he could easily have hired workers from nearby towns to help him build it. Secondly, they don't need to build one. IT'S ALREADY BEEN DONE!
Over seventy years ago an experimental vessel was built in Denmark to the same proportions as the Ark”but very much smaller”and of the same constructional style. This boat was thirty feet long, five feet wide, and three feet high from the flat base to the angle formed by the meeting of the two sloping sides. Tests carried out in the Baltic sea by the designer, a naval architect named Vogt, showed that the proportions of the vessel were ideal for maximum resistance to stresses set up by the force of the sea. The Copenhagen newspaper, Dagbladet, of 31st August, 1904, reporting these experiments, said, in part: "The Royal Shipbuilding yard has recently completed the construction of a remarkable vessel. It is 30 feet long, 5 feet wide, and 3 feet high, and with its slanting sides most resembles the roof of a house. It is a new Noah’s Ark, constructed after the design of Mr. Vogt, the engineer, the Carlsburg Fund bearing the expense of its production . . . The remarkable thing about the Bible measurements is that after thousands of years’ experience in the art of shipbuilding they must be confessed to be still the ideal proportions for the construction of a big ship . . . the Ark was not intended to sail, but to lie still on the water, and to give the best and quietest condition for the comfort of its inhabitants, and this is ensured by means of the triangular shape. In a storm the motion of the Ark would be reduced to a minimum . . . If the greatest living engineer in the world was given such a commission as this, to construct as large and strong a vessel as to lie still upon the sea, and as simply constructed as the Ark, he could not make a better vessel." According to another Copenhagen newspaper, Donnebrag, the vessel "drifted sideways with the tide, creating a belt of calm water to leeward, and the test proved conclusively that a vessel of this primitive make might be perfectly seaworthy for a long voyage."
Three hundred years earlier, in 1609, Peter Jansen, of Noorn, Holland, had embarked upon a much more ambitious project. He built a vessel to the proportions of the Ark, one hundred and twenty feet long, twenty wide, and twelve high. It was found to behave so steadily in the sea and to have such ample stowage in relation to its weight that a number of similar boats were built. They fell into disuse only because of the difficulty of arranging for motive power and steering.
So you see, the ark was an extremely seaworthy vessel. In fact, you can read a very technical explanation of why it is here: http://www.answersingenesis.org/tj/v8/i1/noah.asp

This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by Bonobojones, posted 02-23-2005 5:38 PM Bonobojones has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 277 by Yaro, posted 12-15-2005 2:14 AM NotSoBlindFaith has replied
 Message 281 by Bonobojones, posted 12-15-2005 1:33 PM NotSoBlindFaith has not replied
 Message 283 by pink sasquatch, posted 12-15-2005 2:00 PM NotSoBlindFaith has not replied

NotSoBlindFaith
Inactive Junior Member


Message 278 of 296 (269574)
12-15-2005 4:14 AM
Reply to: Message 277 by Yaro
12-15-2005 2:14 AM


Re: Ark Design
Ok, first, you only need a maximum of 16,000 animals on the ark. Although, that is the highest estimate biblical scholars gave, 2,000 is calculated to be a better number. Second, the bible says nothing about Noah ever gathering the animals. It says:
“Pairs of clean and unclean animals, of birds and of all creatures that move along the ground, male and female, came to Noah and entered the ark, as God had commanded Noah.” Genesis 7:8-9
So, Noah didn’t go get them, they came on there own. Third, now, although Noah probably had no biological knowledge, he lived in a farming community, and farmers know how to take care of there animals. Fourth, when Noah, his Family, and the Animals all finally where able to leave the ark, many plants had already grown back, at least partially, so that there was plenty of food for the animals, especially since Noah most likely brought infant or juvenile members of the larger kinds on board. And Fifth, the animals who got off the ark where mostly different from the ones we have currently. There were two of all kinds when they got on, but some of the animals who where of breeding age probably had increased that number by the time they got off. So, say two medium sized medium length coated canines got off the ark. Now say afterwards then had lots and lots of puppies. Now, some puppies went north where it was cold, and the ones with genes for long thick fur grew long thick fur and survived, the others died. Now some went south, and the ones with genes for short fur lived, and the others died. Now, if you go like that for all the kinds, such as feline, equine, ursine, and others, you get a whole lot of animals spread out everywhere which don’t look that same as they did before. So you didn’t have tigers magically knowing to go to Asia and Lions magically knowing to go to Africa, they just went where there was food and space. But the cats are still cats and the dogs are still dogs.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 277 by Yaro, posted 12-15-2005 2:14 AM Yaro has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 279 by Yaro, posted 12-15-2005 9:01 AM NotSoBlindFaith has not replied

NotSoBlindFaith
Inactive Junior Member


Message 286 of 296 (269782)
12-15-2005 8:18 PM
Reply to: Message 285 by robinrohan
12-15-2005 5:47 PM


Re: Ark Design
Ok, I'll make it even easier on you. Get 2000 animals, each group of 2-7 a member of a different 'kind'. I don't know what the heck a 'kind ' is, but supposing you figure it out, it should at least seem like the animals are enugh to create the variety we see today. Load them up on the wooden ship and set out to sea for a year.
The Bible tells us in Genesis chapter 1 that God created plants to produce seed ”after their kind’ (vv. 11, 12). God also created the animals to reproduce ”after their kind’ (vv. 20, 24, 25). ”After their/its kind’ is repeated ten times in Genesis 1, giving emphasis to the principle. And we take it for granted. When we plant a tomato seed, we don’t expect to see a geranium pop up out of the ground. Nor do we expect that our dog will give birth to kittens or that Aunt Betty, who is expecting, will bring home a chimpanzee baby from hospital! Our everyday experience confirms the truth of the Bible that things produce offspring true to their kind.
But what is a created ”kind’? And what organisms today represent the kinds God created in the beginning? The creationist scientist, Carolus Linnaeus (1707-1778), the founder of the science of taxonomy,1 tried to determine the created kinds. He defined a ”species’ as a group of organisms that could interbreed among themselves, but not with another group, akin to the Genesis concept. (http://www.answersingenesis.org)
So, basically, that’s two canines, feline, equine ect.
.... that may qualify him to raise chickens or live stock, but certainly not the zoological/bilogical knowledge to keep, say, a giant panda alive for a year in a stuffy wooden boat full of other animals.
So, i'll even go this far with you. The test "Noah" can be a farmer.
Ok, you should probably know by know, there were no Giant Panda’s on the ark, just two bears. And they were probably hibernating during most of there time on the ark.
Ok. I'll go this far with you. Our test Noah can let loose the 2000 BABY animals on a mountain in a fertile region of the middle east. How's that?
You forget, they spent a year on the ark, most of the baby animals, though not full grown, were large enough to take care of themselves at this point.
Oh! This get's better! Ok... I wan't our test "Noah" to gather 2000 BABY animals and cram them into the boat and keep them alive for a year. I hate to tell ya, but you just made your job significantly harder!
Do you know the kind of special care babys take? You have got to be kidding me.
You do realize most of the baby animals he would care for were reptiles right? I’ve raised baby reptiles, (and other species) they are possibly the easiest baby animals to care for, with slow metabolisms, keeping feeding duty to a minimum for an animal of that size.
And Fifth, the animals who got off the ark where mostly different from the ones we have currently.
What that means is that instead of lions and tigers, you would have a large feline with the genetics of all the cats. You get my point.
Greta experiment! Lets get 7 "medium length coated canines", release them on a mountain in the middle east. Track them with radio transmitters and see how far they get and how much they change.
Or better yet, release a variety of domestic dogs into a desert in say, Australia, and see how far they get and how much they change. Oh wait, that’s been done.
Could you tell me about the three-toed sloth. How did he get to the amazon forest in south america? That's the only place he lives ya know, and he is the only one of it's 'kind'. How you figure he crawled all the way from ararat at an average of a foot a minute without dying of predation or starvation along the way?
I’ll give you a hint, the ancient sloths were 7 feet tall, and all sloth’s swim very well.
Ok. Let's talk about ring-tailed lemurs. Native only to madegascar. How you figure they got there from ararat without being eaten or dying from starvation?
Yet again, as I said before, there would be no lemurs, just two primates. So, just follow the trail of monkeys and apes.
I can take an old hollow log, seal the ends and, guess what? I've got a "model" of the Titanic. Or I can go down to my neighborhood undertaker, get a wooden coffin, seal the lid and, presto! I've got a "model" of the QE2.
A boat that is 30 x 5 x 3 is...guest what? A boat that is 30x5x3. It's not a model of anything. You can scale the size of a boat and call it a model, but you can't scale the ocean. Wave action against a 30 foot hull is not the same as against a hull that is 300 or 400 or 500 feet long. The stresses are entirely different. Read the first few pages at the beginning of this topic to bring yourself up to speed, NotSoBlind.
BTW - If I were a predator just getting off the Ark, I sure as heck wouldn't walk all the way back to Africa to get a meal. I'd just pounce on the first zebra or antelope coming out the door. And if Noah got in the way, I'd bite his ass, too.
One, they built a 120 foot boat in 1609, and that also stood up to the forces of the ocean. Plus, other wooden ships of that size survived longer ocean voyages, and they were not as structurally sound. Noah’s ark has been tested and found to be nearly impossible to capsize. Plus, if you have ever seen the release of a predator from even a short time in confinement, they don’t stick around, there out of there the moment you open the cage door.
Not to mention the fact that there is a severe shortage of man hours to care for the proposed 2,000 animals. Only 8 people on the boat with dietary needs, environmental conditions, and litterally tons of manure to be removed daily. Wouldn't the levels of ammonia in all the urine being expelled reach toxic levels very quickly in a sealed environment? This is just a guess on my part.
Do you know how hard it is to get certain animals to breed in a zoo, let alone in the ocean!?
And there is the problem of providing conditions favorable for the production of healthy offspring. It's not enough to huddle the newborns into a crate and stick them in a corner of the ship.
One, the ark had one large window running along the side, providing adequate ventilation. Two, the average size of the animals that would had been with his were about the size off sheep. Three, along with the other animals on the ark, Noah had other species such as dung bettles and others to help with cleanup. Four, it would be easy enough to get rid of excess animal droppings, all that is required is to throw them out the window. Five: The animals would have cared for there own young if they were breeding.
And since you all are telling me what experiments I can do to prove my theory, heres on for you:
If there were a basic principle of matter which somehow drove organic systems toward life, its existence should easily be demonstrable in the laboratory. One could, for instance, take a swimming bath to represent the primordial soup. Fill it with any chemicals of a non-biological nature you please. Pump any gases over it, or through it, you please, and shine any kind of radiation on it that takes your fancy. Let the experiment proceed for a year and see how many of those 2,000 enzymes [proteins produced by living cells] have appeared in the bath. I will give the answer, and so save the time and trouble and expense of actually doing the experiment. You would find nothing at all, except possibly for a tarry sludge composed of amino acids and other simple organic chemicals. How can I be so confident of this statement? Well, if it were otherwise, the experiment would long since have been done and would be well-known and famous throughout the world. The cost of it would be trivial compared to the cost of landing a man on the Moon . . In short there is not a shred of objective evidence to support the hypothesis that life began in an organic soup here on the Earth.’
Sir Fred Hoyle, British physicist and astronomer, The Intelligent Universe, Michael Joseph, London, 1983, pp. 20-21, 23.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 285 by robinrohan, posted 12-15-2005 5:47 PM robinrohan has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 287 by Yaro, posted 12-15-2005 8:52 PM NotSoBlindFaith has not replied
 Message 288 by ringo, posted 12-15-2005 9:54 PM NotSoBlindFaith has replied
 Message 292 by Nuggin, posted 12-15-2005 11:12 PM NotSoBlindFaith has not replied

NotSoBlindFaith
Inactive Junior Member


Message 289 of 296 (269839)
12-15-2005 10:41 PM
Reply to: Message 288 by ringo
12-15-2005 9:54 PM


Re: Ark Design
The Ark measured 300x50x30 cubits , which is about 140x23x13.5 metres or 459x75x44 feet, so its volume was 43,500 m3 (cubic metres) or 1.54 million cubic feet. That’s about 522 standard railroad stock cars. If the animals were kept in cages with an average size of 50x50x30 centimetres (20x20x12 inches), the 16,000 animals would only occupy 1200 m3 (42,000 cubic feet) or 14.4 stock cars. (That’s assuming your going for the maximum 16,000 animals, if there were less, there would be even more space left.) Even if Noah put a million insect species on board, they would only need cages of four inches on each side, filling another 12 cars. That leaves room for five trains of 99 cars for food, Noah and his family, plus exercise room for the animals. Even if you don’t stack cages one on top of the other, the animals would need less then half the floor space on the ark.
The Ark would probably have carried compressed and dried foodstuffs, and probably a lot of concentrated food. Perhaps Noah fed the cattle mainly on grain, plus some hay for fibre. The volume of foodstuffs has been calculated to have been only about 15 % of the Ark’s total volume. Drinking water would only have taken up 9.4 % of the volume. This volume would be reduced further if rainwater was collected and piped into troughs for the animals.
It is doubtful whether the humans had to clean the cages every morning. (trust me, I raise animals, you don’t clean cages every day.) Possibly they had sloped floors or slatted cages, where the manure could fall away from the animals and be flushed away (there was plenty of water around.) or destroyed by vermicomposting (that’s composting by worms) which would also provide earthworms as a food source. Very deep bedding can sometimes last for a year without needing a change. Absorbent material (for excample, sawdust, softwood wood shavings and especially peat moss) would reduce the moisture content and hence the odour. (Although the smell would not exactly be like perfume at the end of a year at sea.)
(I got my measurements from http://www.answersingenesis.org, and they got theres from the bible and deductive reasoning.)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 288 by ringo, posted 12-15-2005 9:54 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 290 by jar, posted 12-15-2005 10:52 PM NotSoBlindFaith has not replied
 Message 291 by ringo, posted 12-15-2005 11:03 PM NotSoBlindFaith has not replied
 Message 294 by Yaro, posted 12-16-2005 9:21 AM NotSoBlindFaith has not replied

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