General discussion of moderation procedures - Part οκτώ

Jar, as I said in my email, I am really struggling with this for reasons that I wish to enunciate as clearly as possible.In the thread you gave this quote, the discussion was in my opinion flowing quite naturally from topic to related topic. We cannot talk about science... especially in terms of whether or not scientists are lying, without getting into the dialog about morality itself.The reason diferring positions are unable to understand each other, is often times because the terms on which their reasoning are not even agreed upon.When you stop the dialog as being off topic, you are ensuring that the issue cannot be understood. It is difficult enough for some of these differences to be bridged in any case.I understand the need to keep things on topic, but where that line is drawn, seems to me, to be motivated (in your case) by something other than a desire for agreement to be reached. If that is true (and only you know for sure. I do not claim to read your mind), then I respectfully rebuke you.I honestly think the reason you insert yourself has more to do with the fact that the positions I take are ultimatley effective, than in any real problem with a violation of the legitimate use of topic enforcement. If so, (and only you know) I would not expect you of all people to acknowledge it.But that goes right to the core of the morality issue doesn't it? And whether scientists are interested in sound reasoning that includes a complete philosophical framework, or an intentional seperation of ideas, disciplines and individuals.Communication is our only highway. I do hope you wouldn't put up road blocks unless absolutely appropriate. Such as in cases of verbal abuse from various members, which you seem to tolerate well enough, while preoccupied with putting detours and obstacles in the path of earnest runners of the greatest race.

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"Now that I am a Christian I do not have moods in which the whole thing looks very improbable: but when I was an atheist I had moods in which Christianity looked terribly probable."
(C. S. Lewis)

Your not God Jar. You're just a monkey remember?
And not by my interpretation of reality, but your own!Your moralizing is corrupted by it's own disrespect for itself and it's source.By all means, I am ready for my 40 lashes minus 1."When you invite a middle-aged moralist to address you, I suppose I must conclude...that you have a taste for middle-aged moralizing."
(C.S. Lewis The Weight of Glory)

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"Now that I am a Christian I do not have moods in which the whole thing looks very improbable: but when I was an atheist I had moods in which Christianity looked terribly probable."
(C. S. Lewis)

Well I have as of now. I don't think it is accidental that Jar would not reccomend the thread to me. He would rather my participation be squelched!What I want to know, is why my permission was revoked to participate in Shrafinators thread? There was no suspension, and for that I am grateful. But there was also no explanation. Shrafinator himself seemed willing to continue the dialog very vigorously and thoughfully.I tried to respond to Ringo, who is an adept debater, and found myself in limbo!

So you opt for protecting the scientific method? I would never have anticipated that! Poor Demus...I figured it was some method of restricting particular posters, perhaps even by Shraf...Herself?I thought Shraff had a photo some time ago, that clearly showed a man (and with a smirk as intentionally intimidating as Ringo's Avatar)!Who knows these days? what's male? What's female? What's light? What's dark? Who was betrayed with a kiss. Not even for silver, but for glory.Proverbs 18:24
A man of many companions may come to ruin, but there is a friend who sticks closer than a brother.

I understand. My own discernment still needs some balance. My words were a bit harsh toward him in that respect. You know what he said...Those may be his words, but that is not his idea. He is being used by very intelligent participants in this forum. Many of whom are admins who have the power (and use it) to influence the outcome of these debates. And not in the favor of their opponents as if that needs to be said.I have had to grow substantially to be able to come back to this forum and not abuse the power that is weilded by a 'C.S. Lewis caliber' debate. I am capable, yet I restrain myself each time I post out of respect for any who are earnest.My rebuke of Jar was as civil (girded with love) as is humanly possible for me at this time. Always room for improvement, but you have no idea...I only ask that Phat, well intentioned as he is, restrain himself from being manipulated because of his willingness to be friends.There are other admins who could have put this restriction on me and not used him to do it so nakedly.It is pure intelectual cowardess, and makes the point I have been restricted from making in terms clear for all to see... That scientists and scientific minded lemmings are as inscrupulous, if not more; and more zealous in protecting their turf, as any Church that ever claimed itself to be of God.Holmes is far more right than he knows...This is not childsplay folks. You are all playing with real things, with even more real consequences. These ideas work themselves through into societies and are powerful.Can we all try to be responsible? Can we at least have a legitimate discourse?

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"Now that I am a Christian I do not have moods in which the whole thing looks very improbable: but when I was an atheist I had moods in which Christianity looked terribly probable."
(C. S. Lewis)

That is rich NWR. Absolutely rich! I am not debating...
I was discussing moderation procedure or the lack thereof. Perhaps the abuse thereof is more accurate.Perhaps there is not an appropriate thread on this site for honest debate and serious inquiries unto reality and truth.I suppose it could be said, that now I am debating whether or not I am debating!Is there a moderation thread for discussing the moderation thread????Absolutely rich! It is nice to know you do have a sense of humor. If you actully meant it... then...Either way, at least I am laughing now... The least I can do is thank you for that much!"A man can no more diminish God's glory by refusing to worship Him than a lunatic can put out the sun by scribbling the word, 'darkness' on the walls of his cell."
(C. S. Lewis) Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

Thanks Percy, it's ok...I had a restless nights sleep, and I don't know whether to be grateful or saddened that there are no responses to my posts this morning other than this one. Lions den's are lonely places, and staying alive is not in it's self an end, worthy of the means. Without companionship, there is no life.I had a day off, and poured my entire soul out yesturday, and am quite tired. My wife and children need their Daddy today. It seems to me that so many here at EVC are rightly unimpressed with the state of affairs in our world gone mad. They like many generations and civilizations before them, rightly rebel and attempt to escape the illuions and lies of the world. But only to create a new sub-reality? If we are going to rebel against the world system, let's not repeat history and re-create yet another tower of Babel.Such brilliant minds here. I cannot believe what it takes out of me to try and stay on top of the cream. I give my soul! My goal is to do whatever I can to say "snap out of it". And to illustrate this is easy..."You and I have need of the strongest spell that can be found to wake us from the evil enchantment of worldliness."
(C.S. Lewis The Weight of Glory)Trying to 'reign in' all of this for your proper judgeship, is ultimately, not even a conceivable notion. To be perfectly honest, I have never taken the time to familliarize myself with all of the moderation procedures here at EVC and may well be in violation of some of them. But if so, what does that mean? What human system can tell a man he is wrong? Man will not even let God have that honor. And like you in the case of taking the time to try and understand all this, I don't have the time or energy to write a history of it within the context of EVC Law.It's just the nature of the beast. No law ever changed man. Yet they have often made him worse. I hope Schrafinator understands that someday. It is easier to live by rules, than live in the spirit of truth! My faith in justice and mercy exceeds the capacity of our feeble ways of providing for it. Not because I am superior, but the other way around... because justice and mercy are superior in relation to me.The coffee is ready, and I here a 3 year old jabberring away to his older brother.Just forget it!Edited by Rob, : No reason given.

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"God must know, better than anyone, how unfulfilling it is to be right, until it can be shared, with a community willing to accept it it, and enjoy the glory of it."(Rob Lockett)

very well then...You may wish to read this post and my response http://EvC Forum: Are Scientists Less Moral or Honest than Non-scientists? -->EvC Forum: Are Scientists Less Moral or Honest than Non-scientists?. I think you will understand the situation much better.Thank you for your time.

I'll tell you this... if I was doing what jar is doing in the 'Old Law Still Valid' thread, I would be suspended. And rightly so I now concede. I'd like to think I am growing up, but with much anguish.That is the purpose of discipline. If I dare say, it is a God given gift of training.His behavior there is clearly intended to derail any semblance of communication.He blows off arguments as 'stupid', 'platitudes', 'meaningless' etc.He is forever drawing things off topic and then declaring the answer to his bait irrelevant and off topic.And his claiming to be a christian would be like me claiming to be scientist, and capable of defining what science is, and making my opinion as valid as the scientific method. Those of you who are scientists would be appalled.There's room for disagreement within science and religion, but outright obstructionism is tolerated nowhere.It's like having a wild beast running amuck in the meeting room.He intentionally provokes people and insults them. I have been guilty of falling for the trick over and over again in my own childish pride.I intend to ignore him. I'm getting better at it, but it is very disruptive to actual communication going on. I've outgrown him. Now I know why some of you are so often digusted with me.If he disagrees with a post, he should explain why it is meaningless or stupid or a platitude or irrelevant and not simply say that it is.Should I just expect him to get a pass or what?Is that his job? To brow beat the theists into leaving? is there going to be order in the court.Did his loss of Admin status have anything to do with this?It is just mind boggling!Any suggestions for me as I ask you to raise the bar and lighten the mood somehow?Edited by scottness, : No reason given.Edited by scottness, : No reason given.Edited by scottness, : No reason given.

Thank you for that jar...Anyone can see the clear reasoning behind your assessment. You've explained yourself so well as always.Didn't anybody read you your rights?Edited by scottness, : No reason given.

I got that! But what do you do when certain creatures (for whatever their reasoning or lack thereof) do not believe in swords?They do not even know they're dead!

That was very clever...But the real reason you don't like me, my dear DrJones, is because my mask is off and I have joined the enemy who intends to convince you to take off your own lest you wear it forever.Do what ever you want. You don't obstruct like jar does, and I appriciate that.Respectfully yours, Rob

Well just keep lookin'. You never know what you might find.

Well for the record, I respect you as one of those who is interested in critical analysis. And my preachy sermon traits have been bridled as you can see. But I do not put jar in the same catagory as many of you. You are welcome to join that thread. We could use some reasonable minds over there. Touche'... I stand condemned. I cannot speak. Yes, but I don't have to imagine it. I experience it daily at the hands of jar. As do other well meaning and honest theists. And that is why I am appealing to the body(if you will) for some even handed expectations of behavior, as I have tempered my own hostility in face of strong and open hostility.Consider: 1 John 2:20-27
20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth. 21 I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth. 22 Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist--he denies the Father and the Son.1Co 12:3 ...and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.I don't hear a lot of confessions that Jesus is Lord at EVC. And if there were, what would be the response from theists like jar?Here it goes... Jesus is Lord!

You're the doctor...