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Member (Idle past 1663 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Trilobites, Mountains and Marine Deposits - Evidence of a flood? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1663 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
There are fossil marine deposits on virtually every mountain, including Mt Everest.
These fossil deposits are all of mature marine life, clams many years old, etcetera. If they are evidence of a world wide flood then: (1) the flood was much longer in duration than is the published conjecture, or (2) the marine environment was unusually productive, in which case we come to the problem of trilobites ... and all other extinct marine fauna and flora from the Precambrian through the marine dinosaurs ... not surviving the flood. Thus you have a logical contradiction. Evidence of multiple layers of mature marine environments on mountains is rather evidence of long ages -- ages to form mature marine environments, ages to cover them, ages for the other mature marine environments to form, and ages for the sedimentary basin to be pushed up into mountains by tectonic activity. Enjoy. Edited by RAZD, : . by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. • • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •
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Admin Director Posts: 13108 From: EvC Forum Joined: |
Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1663 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Thanks, it seems we have a new crop of creationists, hopefully one will advance some explanation.
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Minnemooseus Member Posts: 3971 From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior) Joined: Member Rating: 7.1
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Percy writes:
Source The more familiar example is sea shells on mountain tops. Young earth creationists see this as evidence for a huge global flood lasting maybe a year, and it is. But you dig down a foot and find more shells, and that's evidence for a somewhat longer flood. Then you dig down 10 feet and find more shells, and that's evidence for a very long flood. And then you dig down 100 feet and find more shells, and now the flood hypothesis begins to feel a bit odd since these shells are encased in the mountain, indeed make up a measurable proportion of the mountain, and it doesn't make sense that the shells of successive generations of sea shelled creatures would deposit themselves on the sea floor in the shape of a mountain. But sea shells on the surface are still evidence of a possible flood. And if digging had revealed no evidence of shells beneath the surface, guess what? The flood hypothesis would have to be considered a viable alternative, especially if other mountains around the world revealed the same pattern. So it absolutely isn't true that there is no evidence for Noah's flood. It's just that the evidence supporting the flood has more than one possible interpretation, and only when added to the other evidence does it become clear that there was never any such flood. My "bolding in red" - The difference between marine fossils merely being on a mountain topic, and marine fossils being part of the makeup of the entire mountain. Moose
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deerbreh Member (Idle past 3151 days) Posts: 882 Joined:
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There he goes again - refuting the YEC "Sea Shells on mountain tops!" meme with the inconvenient observation that the shells are also found in sediment layers WITHIN the mountain. Drat that Percy fellow.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1663 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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There he goes again - refuting the YEC "Sea Shells on mountain tops!" meme with the inconvenient observation that the shells are also found in sediment layers WITHIN the mountain. Drat that Percy fellow. Yes, and when you combine the observation of layers on top of layers on top of layers with the observation that each layer contains fossils of sea shells with 20 to 30 years of annual growth patterns, you quickly add up to hundreds of years of marine deposits in each of these locations. Conclusion: the evidence cannot be due to water covering these locations for only a few hundred days, and therefor it is de facto NOT evidence of any Noachin like flood event, but of something that occurred on a geological time scale. Enjoy.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1663 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
David101:
The question is why are there fossils of 20 and 30 year old seashells on mountain tops ... and how this can be evidence for a flood of only a couple hundred days. Add to that, the fact that clams and the like live as a free swimming larval stage for a year or so before growing a shell. Enjoy. Edited by RAZD, : . by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. • • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •
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deerbreh Member (Idle past 3151 days) Posts: 882 Joined: |
quote: Oh that's no problem. Even I can answer that. Things got so churned up when the "fountains of the deep" opened up that shells were picked up topsy turvy and scattered all over the place. And the layers underneath? There were earlier floods of course which just aren't mentioned. But it says it had never rained before...never mind. Maybe it has something to do with the speed of light changing? Where is Duane Gish when you need a "Gish gallop" to an alternative explanation?
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BeagleBob Member (Idle past 5935 days) Posts: 81 Joined:
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Ever since I first heard about the "seashells on mountaintops = global flood" claim in high school, I really wondered how people who had basic education could make these sorts of claims so nonchalantly.
You learn about plate tectonics in elementary school. You learn about it again in high school. There's a Magic Schoolbus episode about plate tectonics, for Chrissake.
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bluescat48 Member (Idle past 4447 days) Posts: 2347 From: United States Joined: |
I don't know how or when plate tectonics is or was taught in grammar or high schools, but I never heard the term until I was in an Earth Science class in 1971 when I returned to college after my first army tour. It certainly explained many questions about the dynamics of the earth's crust.
There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002 Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969
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Taz Member (Idle past 3549 days) Posts: 5069 From: Zerus Joined: |
Plate tectonics has been in elementary curriculum for a good 20 years. Nothing technical. Students are just presented with the fact that there are plates and that they move around, very very slowly pushing up some mountains and pushing down others. I still remember my very irreligious middle school science teacher telling us that most people have a problem understanding gradualism and that for most people catastrophism is a lot easier to swallow. If you think about it, it's true. Most people have trouble imagining a movement as slow as an inch in a couple years. They like the idea of earth shattering movements in a split second much much more.
Added by edit. Just how many movies of natural disasters do you know with the disaster hitting people very very very very slowly? Just imagine what the ratings for the movie The Day After Tomorrow would have been like if the ice age hit the northern hemisphere in a timespan of several thousand years rather than just a couple of weeks? Edited by Taz, : No reason given. I'm trying to see things your way, but I can't put my head that far up my ass.
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deerbreh Member (Idle past 3151 days) Posts: 882 Joined: |
I graduated from high school in 1969. I remember discussing continental drift in high school physical science class (1967 in a small rural high school in Pennsylvania}. It was in the earth science text I used to teach ninth graders in 1973 - and it was by no means a new textbook - at least 5 years old. So anyone who graduated from high school after 1970 should certainly have been exposed to the concept.
Edited by deerbreh, : No reason given.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1663 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
The topic is seashells, on mountains, being evidence of a flood.
thanks.
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BeagleBob Member (Idle past 5935 days) Posts: 81 Joined: |
Sorry, but I thought it was relevant. After all, tectonic forces are what push seashell-bearing strata up to become mountains, aren't they?
Anyone with an elementary level of education should be able to figure this out. This is why it boggles the mind.
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deerbreh Member (Idle past 3151 days) Posts: 882 Joined: |
quote: Of course it is relevant. The topic is explaining why or why not sea shells on mountain tops are evidence for a global flood. The more parsimonius explanation for how sea shells got to be on mountaintops has to be relevant. A better explanation of the data is always relevant in scientific debate.
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