After I posted my last message last night, it occurred to me that vast areas of repeated Bouma sequences might be the expected result of Faith's (very iffy) stirring up of ocean basin sediments / slopping the water and sediment onto the continents scenario.

Well, the known mechanism for a Bouma sequence is a sediment-loaded current (density current) flow downslope onto the floor of the ocean.

The Faith scenario is that the sediments have to flow upslope onto the continent. I don't know of a mechanism for this unless we repeal gravity.

Perhaps one could imagine a mud-volcano type of event, but that would not produce widespread, even and parallel layers in anyone's imagination.

The only thing that really makes sense is a continuous but irregular transgression of the sea working sediments that move down from the land mass. And this is what we see today.

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Faith

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Message 452 of 518 (812442)
06-16-2017 1:20 PM

Reply to: Message 451 by edge
06-16-2017 1:12 PM

Re: where the sediments came from

First, beach sand gets deposited on a slight upslope. Second the Flood water is what rose over the land carrying the sediments. Stir sediments into a vessel of water and let them settle out. They will settle out in layers.

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edge

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Message 453 of 518 (812446)
06-16-2017 1:32 PM

Reply to: Message 450 by Faith
06-16-2017 1:19 AM

Re: Sediment source

How is the expected result of worldwide rain for forty days and nights a miracle?

Well, first of all, the atmosphere cannot hold that much water vapor.

A few days of heavy local rain can produce catastrophic mudflows, therefore worldwide rain for over a month should be expected to produce some pretty "catastrophic weathering" in pretty short order.

Actually, no. You speak of two events: weathering and transport. Most of what we talk about erosion here is the latter, but typically, rocks must be weathered extensively before they turn to sand and silt.

Mudflows form from the saturation and destabilization of previously weathered material.

What Moose correctly observes, is that weathering precedes erosion and can take a very long time. A rainstorm even for years will not turn granite into sand and mud. It takes millennia to form a soil on bedrock and to produce miles of soil would take millions of years of chemical reactions.

The conclusion is that, even if you transport such amounts of sediment into the sea and then back onto the land in a year, you could not possibly have created that much sediment by weathering between the creation of the earth and the flood.

But why "rocks?" I'm supposing mostly fertile soils and packed sediments supporting lush vegetation in the pre-Flood world, all fairly easily subject to erosion by such a downpour of rain.

Sure, but you cannot produce miles of thickness of soil prior to the flood unless the earth was millions of years old. Even then, I kind of doubt that it could happen.

Granites exposed in the Colorado high country show only minor chemical attacks even though they have been exposed to the atmosphere along fractures for thousands of years.

Edited by edge, : No reason given.

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JonF

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Message 454 of 518 (812449)
06-16-2017 2:40 PM

Reply to: Message 452 by Faith
06-16-2017 1:20 PM

Re: where the sediments came from

Stir sediments into a vessel of water and let them settle out. They will settle out in layers.

They won't. Try it.

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edge

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Message 455 of 518 (812461)
06-16-2017 4:10 PM

Reply to: Message 452 by Faith
06-16-2017 1:20 PM

Re: where the sediments came from

First, beach sand gets deposited on a slight upslope.

Well, I'd say that it depends on which direction you are looking.

But actually, I have no idea what you are trying to say here.

Second the Flood water is what rose over the land carrying the sediments.

I'm beginning to see how you've got Walther's Law all bollixed up.

Can you show us streams that carried the sediments up-slope onto the land?

Stir sediments into a vessel of water and let them settle out. They will settle out in layers.

Not exactly. You get grading of sediments, not layering. Layering occurs when you wait for a while (maybe a few hundred years) and then do it again.

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Taq

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Message 456 of 518 (812472)
06-16-2017 5:30 PM

Reply to: Message 450 by Faith
06-16-2017 1:19 AM

Re: Sediment source

Faith writes:

How is the expected result of worldwide rain for forty days and nights a miracle?

There have been more than 40 days and nights of rain since then, and nowhere near the amount of erosion that you are trying to claim.

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Message 457 of 518 (812474)
06-16-2017 5:36 PM

Reply to: Message 452 by Faith
06-16-2017 1:20 PM

Re: where the sediments came from

First, beach sand gets deposited on a slight upslope. ...

At high tide during storms. It can also be eroded. I have watched both at my parents house. I always wanted to mount a camera to show the shore at low tide to show the changing nature of an active shoreline.

You can also get some sand blown up from the shore at low tide when it is dry. This is what builds dunes, not water, over long expanses of time.

Enjoy.

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Message 458 of 518 (812476)
06-16-2017 6:56 PM

Reply to: Message 456 by Taq
06-16-2017 5:30 PM

Re: Sediment source

There have been more than 40 days and nights of rain since then, and nowhere near the amount of erosion that you are trying to claim.

Steady heavy rain for forty days and nights ALL OVER THE WORLD? No.

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Message 459 of 518 (812477)
06-16-2017 6:57 PM

Reply to: Message 455 by edge
06-16-2017 4:10 PM

Re: where the sediments came from

Nothing I've said implies deposition upslope. That's a straw man.

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Message 460 of 518 (812478)
06-16-2017 7:00 PM

Reply to: Message 453 by edge
06-16-2017 1:32 PM

Re: Sediment source

You cannot impose your uniformitarian assumptions on the pre-Flood world.

There was water "above the firmament" before the Flood.

There was no granite in the pre-Flood world because no volcanoes.

Among other things.

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Message 461 of 518 (812480)
06-16-2017 7:23 PM

Reply to: Message 460 by Faith
06-16-2017 7:00 PM

Re: Sediment source

You cannot impose your uniformitarian assumptions on the pre-Flood world.

It's like, the Laws of Physics were different, or something...

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edge

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Message 462 of 518 (812484)
06-16-2017 7:47 PM

Reply to: Message 460 by Faith
06-16-2017 7:00 PM

Re: Sediment source

You cannot impose your uniformitarian assumptions on the pre-Flood world.

Well, if you have an alternative, this would be a good time to tell us.

How was the 'pre-flood world' different?

There was water "above the firmament" before the Flood.

Evidence?

There was no granite in the pre-Flood world because no volcanoes.

So you don't believe in the 'genesis granite' of Gentry, good.

However, how do you explain granites below the Great Unconformity?

Among other things.

Like?

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edge

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Message 463 of 518 (812485)
06-16-2017 7:50 PM

Reply to: Message 459 by Faith
06-16-2017 6:57 PM

Re: where the sediments came from

Nothing I've said implies deposition upslope. That's a straw man.

Well, maybe you could add some details to make things clearer.

Okay so you want to move sediments from the bottom of the ocean up onto the continents. How do you do that without going 'up'?

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edge

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Message 464 of 518 (812486)
06-16-2017 7:52 PM

Reply to: Message 458 by Faith
06-16-2017 6:56 PM

Re: Sediment source

Steady heavy rain for forty days and nights ALL OVER THE WORLD? No.

Is that what the bible says?

Okay, where was there rain forty days and nights? Where was there no rain for forty days and nights? There must be some evidence of where the storm was strongest.

Or are you just making this up as you go?