How to feed and keep the animals on the Ark?

I haven't read all of this thread but I have read Woodmorappe's totally bogus book. It has more nonsense and logical errors than can be described without practically writing another book and I don't think that even Isaak and Morton in their scathing reviews get to more than a small fraction of them.JW claims that most insects survived on floating vegetation. Of course this is small problem for animals like cicadas that live in the ground around the roots of living trees for as much as 17 years before emerging for a brief time to breed and insects that need specific living plants to live on.Ask anyone who has bred tropical fish about how rapidly they adjust to changes in salinity.His time calculations for caring for 16,000 animals of 8,000 different kinds are absurd as anyone who has real experience working with animals (as I do) will tell you.His ventilation scheme requires air blown in through a big window. How does that work on a boat during 40 days and nights of continous rain.He says that large animals may have been trained to pee and poop in buckets. Who is going to hold to buckets. Have you ever seen a cow pee? I would rather clean up the mess than try to hold the buckets. His other idea for waste disposal, including vermicomposting are also absurd.His ideas for self feeders and watering just won't work on a boat and many animals can't be self feed. Hogs for instance get bored and pull the feed out and scatter it around after they have eaten their fill.He claims somewhere that Noah may have had pelleted hay. I have seen an alfalfa pelleting plant and I really doubt Noah had one.He likens load the ark to unloading hogs in a modern slaughterhouse which in purely ridiculous. Noah could not have killed the animals and hung them on hooks to be automatically conveying onto the ark.I could go on and on. What the book really shows is not the feasibility of Noah's ark but the amazing abiity of YECs for self delusion and Woodmorappe's incredible arrogance.Randy

He invokes could have this and could have that without ever saying how. The pelleted hay (on page 16 in my copy) is especially absurd as is training animals to pee in buckets but he never says it was done, just that it could have been done giving him an out. Another thing is says could have been done is vermicomposting all the waste that was generated. What he doesn't say is that would have taken nearly 50,000 pounds of worms (along with about 50,000 pounds of bedding) to vermicomposte the 12 tons of crap generated dailyhttp://www.ext.colostate.edu/pubs/livestk/01224.htmland that the bedding would have to be turned regularly, a very nasty job, turning over 25 tons of worms and 25 tons of bedding along with 12 tons of crap for every day of the trip down in the bottom of the ark. I wonder which of Noah's family got that job.I could go on and on about the absurdities in Woody's bogus book but such criticism generally seems to run right off the YECs like uring from 16,000 animals running down to the bottom of a big boat.Randy[This message has been edited by Randy, 09-04-2003]

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I merely pointed out woodmorappes book as a resource that has already dealt with nearly every point that has been brought up on this BBS.

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Woodmorappe has come up with handwaving ad hoc assertions that are easily seen to be absurd. I would not call that dealing with every point but I suppose you can if you want to.

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For that reason it seems a huge waste of my time to reproduce here what anyone with a modicum of curiosity could find for themselves. The only reason I can figure why no one bothers to read woodmorappe's book is that they are not the least bit interested in what he says. They could care less if he has provided any valid evidence. All they want to do is argue and ridicule. I'm already engaged in one discussion that is taking up the time I have available for this sort of stuff.

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Actually I found it rather difficult to get but I finally did. Now I reread it sometimes when I want to have a good laugh at the expense of YEC absurdity.

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WhatI believe about what woodmorappe has to say is irrelevant. What does the evidence say?

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The evidence says it is total nonsense but that doesn't stop YECs from claiming that Woody as has answered questions that he really has not answered.Randy

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Lots of ridicule--ad hoc, absurd,a good laugh, absurdity,total nonsense--but lacking in any substance. Typical reaction

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There was quite a lot of substance in my previous posts which you totally ignored. Typical reaction.Anyone who thinks that 8 people could have cared for roughly ten times more different "kinds" of animals than found in even a large modern zoo (The Cincinnati zoo for example, has about 700 different species with about 180 staff and about 60 of them do only food prep and feeding IIRC) and a total of 16,000 animals on a big boat for a whole year using farming methods available to bronze age sheepherders should not be surprised when people with experience in caring for animals find the idea absurd. My relatives who are still farmers all find the idea hilarious.I will be out the country the next ten days but can provide more details of Woody's absurdities later if you want.Randy

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From my years of experience with Talk.Origins, on the other hand, I find the place a wholely unreliable source - and has a comple lack intellectually honest, not to mention a dismal failure to grasp reality.

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This off topic but I can give you many specific examples of logical errors, absurd statements, out of context quotes and outright lies on the grossly misnamed true origins archive when I have time. Can you do the same for talk origins or are you just blowing smoke. Maybe someone should open a new thread on one of the other forums where this would be on topic.Randy

Woodmorappe's nonsense has been dealt with very well but I want to make just a few more commentsHere is something about pelleting hay. I really doubt Noah could have done it.http://www.reap-canada.com/Reports/PelletSG.htmI read through all of Woodmorappe's attempts to handwave away the problems of dealing with the 12 tons of animals waste that would be produced each day, I already pointed how absurd the vermicomposting idea is in reality. I have a lot of experience in cleaning up after animals large and small and it is obvious to me me the Woodmorappe doesn't know S**t about animal S**t. It can vary greatly in consistency and can be very sticky, especially to surfaces like wood. One thing that often happens when large animals are transported in serious diarrhea. I have seen a steer project feces for at least 10 feet and a sticky stinky mess it was, especially since a man in a white shirt got in the way.Woodmorappe makes a blunder that reveals how litte he knows about animal care when he talks about bringing the young of large mammals on board to save time and space after waiting just a short period after birth so that they have a better survial chance. He seems to have forgotten what it means to be a mammal. Who will have time to bottle or even bucket feed all those young mammals and where will the milk come from? Do you suppose Noah had Purina powdered indricotherium milk replacer? An elephant nurses for about 2 years IIRC and many other large mammal nurse for several months.He talks about special foods that might be prepared for insectovores and other animals with very specalized diets but I don't see where he allows any time to make the many different preparations that would have to be made. The ohio brown bat for example eats twice its weight in insects every night.The zoo analogy is far from being a strawman. I recall reading that the Cincinnati Zoo has about 700 different species of animals and IIRC about 60-70 staff (which is about 1/3 of their total staff) are devoted just to feeding and cleaning up after them. Yes the ark was not a zoo. As has been pointed out it would have been much harder to care for the animals while transporting them on this massive wooden boat. To think that 1 tenth as many people could care for 10 times as many different "kinds" of animals without electicity, stainless steel cages, high pressure hoses or any modern conveniences is beyond absurd.Now about only animals with lungs that breathe through their nostriles being on board, does this mean that all such animals must have been on board? I assume so. How do you suppose the pair of walrus got to the middle east? How about the elephant seals and sea lions and the penguins?The idea that all the 800 million or so insect species could have surived on floating vegetation is also absurd. We already have a thread on that subject.http://EvC Forum: Insect diversity falsifies the worldwide flood. -->EvC Forum: Insect diversity falsifies the worldwide flood.Woodmorappe put a lot of work into writing something that may convince those with limited experience with animal care and who avoid thinking through the many difficulties but it is in the end just a massive collection of ad hoc nonsense from someone who has apparently never shoveled out a barn or feed and cared for several differnt kinds of animals or transported livestock anywhere in his life and has no idea what it would be like to try to take care of 8,000 different kinds of animals on a giant wooden boat during a flood that was rearranging all the geology of the world.Randy

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What did I miss?

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Don't cha know Noah had one o' them dinosaur cranes like Fred Flinstone used and he used it to load the ark. He also had all these thousands of willing helpers who got to drown later since they were all murderers and rapists anyway.Randy

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I contaced Bergma...:
"A google search will locate hundreds in 14 languages. I must admit I get tired of the endless name calling such as this. When you prove I have a large number of articles and publications they will go on to something else, trust me. It never ends. I found 3 of my articles on Ohiolink alone. See below. Now he will look for some other way to attack my person. See Doug's website (Revolution against Evolution --RaE) for several article I wrote about this approach." Jerry
Preclinical and clinical models of lung cancer chemoprevention. You, M; Bergman, G Hematology/oncology clinics of North America vol. 12, no. 5 (1998 Oct): 1037-53.

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Detection of differentially expressed genes in mouse lung adenocarcinomas. Lin, L; Wang, Y; Bergman, G; Kelloff, G J; Lubet, R A; You, M Experimental lung research vol. 27, no. 3 (2001 Apr-May): 217-29.

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Detection of genetic alterations in mouse lung adenocarcinomas by
two-dimensional gel electrophoresis. Liu, J; Gu, P; Bergman, G; Kelloff, GJ; et al. Experimental lung research vol. 26, no. 8 (2000 Dec): 651-8.

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These also seem to be the only three papers that show up on Medline for this particular G. Bergman. This is a very low number for such an alllegedly famous biological scientist. I don't know what the relevance of Bergman's lack of credentials has to this thread since it is Woodmorappe/Peczkis who wrote the bogus book on Noah's ark and whatever else his credentials may be it is clear to me that Woodmorappe/Peczkis knows virtually nothing about the practical aspects of caring for large numbers of large and small animals without the use modern technology.Randy