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Author Topic:   Creationist experiment to prove the possibility of Noah's ark
Posts: 33445
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.5

Message 98 of 115 (669987)
08-07-2012 7:23 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by mram10
08-07-2012 6:52 PM

The Biblical Flood never happened.
Well, the Flood story is of course totally refuted, it just plain never happened.

Whether or not an Ark is possible is totally irrelevant.

Here is the absolute refutation based directly on what the Bible claims we MUST see if the flood really happened.

IIRC I first presented that idea back in 2005 or 2006 and the beauty of it is that it begins by assuming only what the Bible stories say is true and asks, "If true, what must we see?"

If someone claims that they shot and hit the target, then we must see a hole in the target. If we look at the target and there is no hole, then the claim that the target was hit is falsified.

The test is also independent of when the flood happened; it does not matter if it was yesterday, 4300 years ago or 200,000 years ago.

Regardless of when the flood happened the genetic bottleneck would have been at the same time for every surviving species. The population would have been reduced to at best 14 critters of a kind and at worst 4 critters of a kind.

But wait, there is more...

one possible way around it has been to invoke some super genome, that the pre-flood genome was somehow different and so allowed for greater variation.

Well, there are two major problems there.

First, even if there was some super genome if the Biblical flood stories were true there would still only be at best 14 copies of it to work with and that is still a bottleneck.

Second, we have genetic evidence from humans that date to before the 4300 years ago date, from as far back as 30,000 years ago and as far back as 14,000 years ago in the Americas and there is no sign of any super-genome.

I think these two lines of reasoning are pretty solid.

Here is the detailed description of the first argument (the genetic bottleneck).

In the version of the myth found in Genesis 6 God instructs Noah to:

19 You are to bring into the ark two of all living creatures, male and female, to keep them alive with you. 20 Two of every kind of bird, of every kind of animal and of every kind of creature that moves along the ground will come to you to be kept alive. 21 You are to take every kind of food that is to be eaten and store it away as food for you and for them."

In the version of the myth found in Genesis 7 we see similar (close but not the same) instructions:

2 Take with you seven of every kind of clean animal, a male and its mate, and two of every kind of unclean animal, a male and its mate, 3 and also seven of every kind of bird, male and female, to keep their various kinds alive throughout the earth.

We also find similar explanations of what will be destroyed in Genesis 6 it says:

7 So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth—men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air—for I am grieved that I have made them."

and in Genesis 7:

4 Seven days from now I will send rain on the earth for forty days and forty nights, and I will wipe from the face of the earth every living creature I have made."

In both myths lots of critters get killed, in the myth found in Genesis 6 it seems to be talking about land animals and birds while the myth found in Genesis 7 goes even further and wipes out all living things.

If we play mix and match and take the best scenario from each of the myths we might be able to claim that only the birds and land animals were wiped out based on the passage from the Genesis 6 story and that we have the larger saved population found in Genesis 7.

Based on that mix and match game set we have a situation where all land animals and birds found today will be descended from a population that consisted of at most fourteen critters (seven pairs of clean animals and birds) and at worst case four critters (two pair of unclean animals).

Now that is what I would call a real bottleneck.

We know we can see bottlenecks in the genetic record; a great example is the one in Cheetahs but we even see them in the human genome and most other species.


If the flood actually happened we would see a bottleneck in EVERY species of animal living on the land and EVERY bird and EVERY one of the bottlenecks show up in the SAME historical time period.

Talk about a big RED flag.

That bottleneck signature would be something every geneticists in the world would see. It would be like a neon sign, Broadway at midnight on New Years Eve. It would be something even a blind geneticist could see.

So it seems to me to be a very simple test that will support or refute the Flood.

If that genetic marker is there in EVERY species living on land or bird of the air, then there is support for the flood. It does not prove the flood happened but it would be very strong support.

If on the other hand that genetic marker is NOT there, then the Flood is refuted.

It's not a matter of anyone being anti-Christian; I am a Christian. It's a matter of what is supported by the evidence and the evidence totally refutes any world-wide flood as described in the Bible stories.

To claim otherwise is simply to be wrong.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by mram10, posted 08-07-2012 6:52 PM mram10 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by mram10, posted 08-07-2012 7:34 PM jar has responded

Posts: 33445
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.5

Message 100 of 115 (669990)
08-07-2012 7:44 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by mram10
08-07-2012 7:34 PM

Re: The Biblical Flood never happened.
Great, study. Reality though is that the Biblical Flood never happened, the Exodus never happened as described in the Bible, the Conquest of Canaan as described in Joshua is pure fiction...

It is not a matter of hate as much as hilarity.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by mram10, posted 08-07-2012 7:34 PM mram10 has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by foreveryoung, posted 08-07-2012 11:16 PM jar has acknowledged this reply

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