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Author Topic:   Admin Responsibility
IANAT
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 31 (285164)
02-09-2006 10:00 AM


I thought I would allow some time to pass and let the Administrator politely ask Yaro to stop putting the insulting Muhammad (peace be with him) cartoon as his message picture.

Since you know why the cartoon is controversial, I thought common courtesy would raise you to action, even though that is not your religion.

We get it. Muslims know about free speech. This continuous display of the picture is beyond free speech now. It is meant with evil heart spirit by Yaro, and by lack of your action, I feel that you condone it.

How would you Americans feel if I were to post a cartoon showing a hero of yours with his head cut off? Would you consider that free speech and allow it to continue? I would not do that, of course. So, I hope that human compassion would also be from you.


Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Chiroptera, posted 02-09-2006 10:02 AM IANAT has not yet responded
 Message 4 by AdminJar, posted 02-09-2006 10:54 AM IANAT has responded
 Message 6 by Omnivorous, posted 02-09-2006 11:10 AM IANAT has responded
 Message 18 by nator, posted 02-09-2006 12:50 PM IANAT has not yet responded
 Message 20 by Faith, posted 02-09-2006 12:54 PM IANAT has not yet responded

Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6532
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003


Message 2 of 31 (285165)
02-09-2006 10:02 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by IANAT
02-09-2006 10:00 AM


quote:
How would you Americans feel if I were to post a cartoon showing a hero of yours with his head cut off?

As an American, I say go for it. Put something offensive in your signature, too.


"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by IANAT, posted 02-09-2006 10:00 AM IANAT has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Faith, posted 02-09-2006 10:08 AM Chiroptera has not yet responded

Faith
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 31 (285168)
02-09-2006 10:08 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Chiroptera
02-09-2006 10:02 AM


Christ died for sinners; Mohammed kills them
I agree.

Although I think freedom of speech is abused in many ways, offense to belief can't be a reason to restrict it.

I was impressed by this article which was handed out at church last night:

Being Mocked: The Essence of Christ's Work, Not Muhammad's

If Christ had not been insulted, there would be no salvation. This was his saving work: to be insulted and die to rescue sinners from the wrath of God. Already in the Psalms the path of mockery was promised: “All who see me mock me; they make mouths at me; they wag their heads” (Psalm 22:7). “He was despised and rejected by men . . . as one from whom men hide their faces . . . and we esteemed him not” (Isaiah 53:3).

When it actually happened it was worse than expected. “They stripped him and put a scarlet robe on him, and twisting together a crown of thorns, they put it on his head. . . . And kneeling before him, they mocked him, saying, ‘Hail, King of the Jews!’ And they spit on him” (Matthew 27:28-30). His response to all this was patient endurance. This was the work he came to do. “Like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent, so he opened not his mouth” (Isaiah 53:7).

This was not true of Muhammad. And Muslims do not believe it is true of Jesus. Most Muslims have been taught that Jesus was not crucified. One Sunni Muslim writes, “Muslims believe that Allah saved the Messiah from the ignominy of crucifixion.”1 Another adds, “We honor [Jesus] more than you [Christians] do. . . . We refuse to believe that God would permit him to suffer death on the cross.”2 An essential Muslim impulse is to avoid the “ignominy” of the cross.

That’s the most basic difference between Christ and Muhammad and between a Muslim and a follower of Christ. For Christ, enduring the mockery of the cross was the essence of his mission....

This message has been edited by Faith, 02-09-2006 10:34 AM


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 7 by jar, posted 02-09-2006 11:15 AM Faith has not yet responded

AdminJar
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 31 (285178)
02-09-2006 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by IANAT
02-09-2006 10:00 AM


On Free Speech
Funny thing about Free Speech.

It is not the speech that you agree with that must be protected, but rather that speech that you most disagree with.

That is an important lesson to be learned.


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  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by IANAT, posted 02-09-2006 10:00 AM IANAT has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 9 by IANAT, posted 02-09-2006 11:43 AM AdminJar has not yet responded

    Jazzns
    Member (Idle past 2021 days)
    Posts: 2657
    From: A Better America
    Joined: 07-23-2004


    Message 5 of 31 (285179)
    02-09-2006 10:59 AM
    Reply to: Message 3 by Faith
    02-09-2006 10:08 AM


    Re: Christ died for sinners; Mohammed kills them
    I have never attended a church service across about 6 denominations that ever even cared to mention Mohammed at a service. In fact I have never attended a church service in a similar vein where the focus was on attacking ANY other religion.

    That you DO get this in church IMO is scary and indicative of some American Christian's tendencies to focus less on Christ and more on the world. When you are in His house, what matter is Mohammed to the praise and preaching of the word of God? Moreover what use is comparing Jesus to Mohammed? Are they afraid that somehow the Gospel is so weak that they must explicitly quantify how Christ is better than the figurehead of other religions?


    No smoking signs by gas stations. No religion in the public square. The government should keep us from being engulfed in flames on earth, and that is pretty much it. -- Jon Stewart, The Daily Show
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 3 by Faith, posted 02-09-2006 10:08 AM Faith has not yet responded

    Omnivorous
    Member (Idle past 1077 days)
    Posts: 3808
    From: Adirondackia
    Joined: 07-21-2005


    Message 6 of 31 (285180)
    02-09-2006 11:10 AM
    Reply to: Message 1 by IANAT
    02-09-2006 10:00 AM


    Try asking politely yourself
    IANAT, I haven't been following the discussion of this issue past the point where it seemed to be generating more heat than light.

    While I have no religious sensibilities to offend, I sympathize with your distress. On this particular issue--religious sensibility vs. freedom of speech--the Muslim and Western traditions are far apart and are colliding with great impact.

    I think many in the West have been startled and dismayed by the passionate response to the cartoons; perhaps the Muslim world is suprised by the deep convictions we in the West share about the over-riding importance of free speech.

    You might try asking Yaro politely to stop using the image--not because you have a right to stifle his free expression, but because it causes you great distress.

    It is our long tradition to refuse to accede to censorship when it is demanded as a right or sought via threat.

    I can't speak for Yaro. But if you ask merely as another human being seeking accommodation from another, without threat or insistence on the right to demand it, Yaro may well agree. A simple request accompanied by a please and thank you might work wonders here.


    "Dost thou think because thou art virtuous there shall be no more cakes and ale?"
    -Sir Toby Belch, Twelfth Night

    Save lives! Click here!
    Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC!
    ---------------------------------------


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by IANAT, posted 02-09-2006 10:00 AM IANAT has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 8 by IANAT, posted 02-09-2006 11:32 AM Omnivorous has responded

      
    jar
    Member
    Posts: 30936
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004


    Message 7 of 31 (285181)
    02-09-2006 11:15 AM
    Reply to: Message 3 by Faith
    02-09-2006 10:08 AM


    Speaking as a Christian...
    I strongly disagree with both the title of your post and the conclusion of the handout you linked to.

    I have seen no evidence that Mohammed kills sinners and no such evidence was provided in the link. In addition, concentrating on the mockery and death of Jesus is to lose sight of the purpose and meaning of his mission.

    Such a position is everybit as insulting to many Christians as the cartoon is to some Muslims.

    This message has been edited by jar, 02-09-2006 10:29 AM


    Aslan is not a Tame Lion
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 3 by Faith, posted 02-09-2006 10:08 AM Faith has not yet responded

    IANAT
    Inactive Member


    Message 8 of 31 (285184)
    02-09-2006 11:32 AM
    Reply to: Message 6 by Omnivorous
    02-09-2006 11:10 AM


    Re: Try asking politely yourself
    quote:
    You might try asking Yaro politely to stop using the image--not because you have a right to stifle his free expression, but because it causes you great distress.

    You are kind and rational. Look at Yaro's post. He or she is not kind and rational.
    The Administrator lets this go claiming free speech, and does not recognize the situation for what it is: offensive and low class. Yaro showed his picture. He had his free speech. But, enough is enough.

    By replying to Yaro's message, I would dignify his messages and cause another appearance of the picture by his reply.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 6 by Omnivorous, posted 02-09-2006 11:10 AM Omnivorous has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 10 by Omnivorous, posted 02-09-2006 11:50 AM IANAT has not yet responded

    IANAT
    Inactive Member


    Message 9 of 31 (285187)
    02-09-2006 11:43 AM
    Reply to: Message 4 by AdminJar
    02-09-2006 10:54 AM


    Re: On Free Speech
    The lesson to be learned is respect, dignity and courtesy take a back seat to free speech from some people.

    From #10 Rule of your Forum:

    quote:
    Always treat other members with respect. Argue the position, not the person. Avoid abusive, harassing and invasive behavior. Avoid needling, hectoring and goading tactics.

    This message has been edited by IANAT, 02-09-2006 11:48 AM


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 4 by AdminJar, posted 02-09-2006 10:54 AM AdminJar has not yet responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 11 by AdminNWR, posted 02-09-2006 11:56 AM IANAT has responded
     Message 21 by crashfrog, posted 02-09-2006 12:55 PM IANAT has not yet responded

    Omnivorous
    Member (Idle past 1077 days)
    Posts: 3808
    From: Adirondackia
    Joined: 07-21-2005


    Message 10 of 31 (285188)
    02-09-2006 11:50 AM
    Reply to: Message 8 by IANAT
    02-09-2006 11:32 AM


    Re: Try asking politely yourself
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Re: Try asking politely yourself
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    You might try asking Yaro politely to stop using the image--not because you have a right to stifle his free expression, but because it causes you great distress.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    You are kind and rational. Look at Yaro's post. He or she is not kind and rational.
    The Administrator lets this go claiming free speech, and does not recognize the situation for what it is: offensive and low class. Yaro showed his picture. He had his free speech. But, enough is enough.

    By replying to Yaro's message, I would dignify his messages and cause another appearance of the picture by his reply.

    quote:
    You might try asking Yaro politely to stop using the image--not because you have a right to stifle his free expression, but because it causes you great distress.

    You are kind and rational. Look at Yaro's post. He or she is not kind and rational.
    The Administrator lets this go claiming free speech, and does not recognize the situation for what it is: offensive and low class. Yaro showed his picture. He had his free speech. But, enough is enough.

    By replying to Yaro's message, I would dignify his messages and cause another appearance of the picture by his reply.

    I understand your quandary, IANAT: I have lived with Buddhists who wear cloth masks lest they inhale and kill a gnat, and who wept when they stepped on a beetle. I have deep respect for the devout.

    Yet, somehow, despite the difficulties, we must dignify each other's messages or the entire world will suffer the consequences.

    I do know that Yaro can be kind and rational; I also know he is angry, just as many Muslins are now so angry that they do not act in a kind and rational way. We are all human and fallible creatures.

    In the name of peace, I will ask Yaro to change his avatar as a favor to me.


    "Dost thou think because thou art virtuous there shall be no more cakes and ale?"
    -Sir Toby Belch, Twelfth Night

    Save lives! Click here!
    Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC!
    ---------------------------------------


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 8 by IANAT, posted 02-09-2006 11:32 AM IANAT has not yet responded

      
    AdminNWR
    Inactive Member


    Message 11 of 31 (285191)
    02-09-2006 11:56 AM
    Reply to: Message 9 by IANAT
    02-09-2006 11:43 AM


    Re: On Free Speech
    I don't like Yaro's avatar. I know it is offensive to some people. I wish Yaro would change it. Nevertheless, I cannot find any basis for requiring that Yaro change it. As AdminJar indicated, freedom of speech includes the freedom to be offensive.

    From #10 Rule of your Forum:
    quote:
    Always treat other members with respect. Argue the position, not the person. Avoid abusive, harassing and invasive behavior. Avoid needling, hectoring and goading tactics.

    In my opinion, the avatar does not violate rule 10. It is not disrespectful of members, even though it might be offensive to some members and might be disrespectful of the beliefs of some members.


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  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 9 by IANAT, posted 02-09-2006 11:43 AM IANAT has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 19 by IANAT, posted 02-09-2006 12:53 PM AdminNWR has not yet responded

    Faith
    Inactive Member


    Message 12 of 31 (285196)
    02-09-2006 12:01 PM


    What avatar are you all talking about? I've checked Yaro's posts a few times since IANAT started this thread and it's the usual cartoon it's always been, nothing about Mohammed. I must have missed an alternate, but whatever it was it was taken down. Unless there's some other avatar somewhere that I'm missing.

    This message has been edited by Faith, 02-09-2006 12:02 PM


    Replies to this message:
     Message 13 by kjsimons, posted 02-09-2006 12:04 PM Faith has responded

    kjsimons
    Member
    Posts: 665
    From: Orlando,FL
    Joined: 06-17-2003


    Message 13 of 31 (285198)
    02-09-2006 12:04 PM
    Reply to: Message 12 by Faith
    02-09-2006 12:01 PM


    Faith, your browser may be dislaying her previous avatar. If you clear your browser's cache and refresh the page you see her current avatar.
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 12 by Faith, posted 02-09-2006 12:01 PM Faith has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 14 by Faith, posted 02-09-2006 12:07 PM kjsimons has responded

    Faith
    Inactive Member


    Message 14 of 31 (285199)
    02-09-2006 12:07 PM
    Reply to: Message 13 by kjsimons
    02-09-2006 12:04 PM


    Oh well, low-tech me. Thanks. I don't even know how to clear a browser's cache. But my browser is AOL, which is enough of a problem in itself, so I probably don't even want to try it. Too bad, I AM curious now.
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 13 by kjsimons, posted 02-09-2006 12:04 PM kjsimons has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 15 by Dan Carroll, posted 02-09-2006 12:11 PM Faith has responded
     Message 16 by kjsimons, posted 02-09-2006 12:12 PM Faith has not yet responded

    Dan Carroll
    Inactive Member


    Message 15 of 31 (285201)
    02-09-2006 12:11 PM
    Reply to: Message 14 by Faith
    02-09-2006 12:07 PM


    Too bad, I AM curious now.

    Here you go. Not meant to offend anyone, just to make clear what is being discussed.


    "I fail to comprehend your indignation, sir. I've simply made the logical deduction that you are a liar."
    -Spock
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 14 by Faith, posted 02-09-2006 12:07 PM Faith has responded

    Replies to this message:
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