Dealing with waste of time threads and their posters...

It seems to me that recently there have been a bit more threads being created by people that are not serious, or more importantly not serious about discussing the issue in the thread they started.I would like to suggest a couple of ways to end the creation of threads that end up wasting the time of others because the authors themselves were not prepared, or not interested, in open discussion.1) End the ability of posters who exhibit an inability to carry on with the threads they start (using it only as a platform for restating their original post) from beginning new threads (at least on such topics). This goes double for posters whose only intent is to promote hatred and ignorance of other beliefs/religions, by restating fallacies over and over again, and NEVER responding to direct criticisms of those fallacies.2) Make it a violation of forum guidelines to start a thread on how brilliant one is and/or how one has absolute proof that they have the solution to the evo/creo debate, yet start with the most common misunderstandings of evolutionary theory (that is the ones that are so common they show the person has not bothered to look at evo theory at all). A good example is someone that leads with "humans came from apes". While it might be said that these people need help, are they really going to get it from a bunch of evos trying to correct them, if they don't bother looking it up for themselves (on this site or somewhere else)?3) If that can't become a violation, and so a reason to knock people off (or suspend them), how about creating a new forum area called "The Pillory of Resident Geniuses"? Then as soon as the new resident genius shows (s)he has no clue what (s)he is talking about, the thread can be moved there, and not take up space in serious forum areas. And as that genius creates more threads on essentially the same topic, only to avoid direct debate in the other threads, they can be moved there as well. Kind of a gallery of dunces.4) It seems there are a growing number of creationist school kids coming here because they are not getting an actual science education in their "True Science" courses. Rather than reinventing the wheel for them every time, maybe we could have a section specifically for them. It could be a collection of their most common questions like "what's the best argument for/against ID", and the best answers already posted.All of this may sound like a joke but I am serious.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

I agree with a special introductory thread that such individuals can be pointed to. Perhaps and expansion or addition to the Suggestions for Creationists one could be used.However, I think that everyone should be given a few posts to show that they either know something or are willing to learn a bit.I don't actually like any specific bannings or suspensions. I think we all have different levels of tolerance for some of these jokers. We can all decide for howselves when to put someone aside and ignore them. I did this with 'whatever' earlier than most.I also think that 'simple' is of the same sort and don't plan on wasting any more time on him. It is hard to deal with ignorance but possible. It is much harder to deal with arrogance and rudeness. The combination is more than enough for me. I won't be replying to him much if at all.

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Common sense isn't

Now there you go with that fair and balanced approach...Actually I am fine with letting a person have a few posts to find their footing. It's just when the person clearly has no clue what they are talking about, it might make more sense to move the thread to some place people can keep posting to if they want, but that the poster himself gets a big hint that they are no longer considered serious (ie they need to go do some research).And more importantly, I was trying to come up with a way to reduce those same kinds of posters opening up several threads in order to restate the same position but not have to deal with the hanging replies in their original thread. Steve is a good example as what were his threads but running from area to area saying the same thing?I guess I should just ignore it, but when I am in the middle of a debate and someone runs it is hard not to follow. Or in the case of Buz, when someone uses threads as a platform for simple hate speech, and disinformation, I feel compelled to say something.I'll keep trying to better myself though. Ohmmmmmmmmmmmm...

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

My pet peeve is poor titles for threads. "I was thinking . . ." and the such bunch my shorts a bit. Ewww, better stop the rant now, .Perhaps if we could create an atmosphere where posters understand that understanding the principles of evolution is not the same thing as believing in evolution. Just like it wouldn't make me a christian if I understood the theology of the christian faith but found it lacking. Some creationists (not all) refuse to understand what the theory of evolution is stating as if they are afraid they will be labeled an evolutionist. Perhaps we need a little philisophical empathy around here once in a while.Beyond that, stopping topic drift (I am guilty as well) should be the responsibility of all posters with the Admins only coming in when it gets out of hand. If someone is new, they should be encouraged to ask help from a more experienced poster in starting a new thread. But sometimes a poster just goes over the edge and is lost to the land of non-reason. Nothing you can do about that.

I agree there seems to be an issue with some creos that to even acknowledge certain points, or learn them properly, is tantamount to giving up their faith.

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Beyond that, stopping topic drift...

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(looks around in guilt) Now heheh, I wasn't saying anything about topic drift.Actually I'm pretty open to topic drift, except if its one of my threads and then I try to keep it on the subject I want discussed.My biggest problem is having the same thread opened repeatedly by the same person, with no real difference except to restart an argument fresh (as if no one had been arguing with him/her before).I was hoping we could do something to limit that, perhaps by manipulating the threads themselves.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

Is this a hate thread aimed at creos by this guy who eats up so much thread bandwidth doing loooooong rambling spin jobs on creo threads or what? I say stick it in the freeforall and let him vent off his disdain for his ideological counterparts there. [This message has been edited by buzsaw, 02-02-2004]

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Is this a hate thread aimed at creos

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No. I have no problem with posts by creationists. I may not agree but that is all. My main problem is with specific posters that don't answer direct replies and then open new threads of essentially the same topic without answering the previous replies.I also have an issue (though lesser) with people that claim to have just solved the whole evo/creo debate and then start in with the oldest cliches.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

While I agree with much of your first post, the Free for All is more or less the gallery of dunces. It was used for a while to confine people like buzsaw and Syamsu until they moderated their behavior to fit with forum guidelines. This was an alternative to an outright ban. I would say it would be easier to confine people who exhibit the characteristics you describe in post one (whether creo or evo) to the Welcome Visitors and Free for All until such time as they can participate in the normal forums. For example, though I have not followed the exchanges closely, whatever seems to have pissed off quite a few people. He was suspended...I would rather see him kicked into the dummy pit until he can enter the normal threads. I would say actually that buzsaw is an example of this working. Though I disagree with 99.99999% of what he says, he has certainly improved his debating skills. On the evo side, I would have preferred that SLPx not be banned but also forced into the dummy pit until he got a hold of himself and was able to respond with clarity. He was fully capable of making excellent posts but at the time he got banned, he was in need of a cooling off period. My 2 cents.

In Message #1, Holmes says:"It seems there are a growing number of creationist school kids coming [to the EvC Forum] because they are not getting an actual science education in their "True Science" courses."That made me wonder how many of the "creationist school kids" actually are "home school kids" whose parents are sheltering them from public school science curricula.Holmes, I know that your intent was not to create a discussion of this educational phenomenon, but don't you think it's a critical issue?This post is not intended to direct folks away from Holmes' thread of discussion; however, someone should initiate a discussion that somehow addresses the impact that creationists home schooling will have on science awareness in college-aged students.Peace.

The impact, already being documented in the U.S., is that more and more scientists and engineers are "imported" from abroad to work in U.S. labs. Homegrown talent is diminishing and thus the U.S. is dependent on the secular education of other countries to maintain its technological edge. As India is showing with IT, this is not a good long term strategy. If that talent stays home, there will be a dearth of scientists able to do or even understand the research necessary for advancement and a public that has no concept of how any of the technology they depend on works...Pop that pill and "pray" that it makes you better. Can you imagine any creationist who frequents this site who could possibly work in R&D in the pharmaceutical industry? Work in a biology lab? Understand how their TV remote works?Note to holmes...sorry, I will stop dragging your thread off topic.

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the Free for All is more or less the gallery of dunces.

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Now don't I feel pretty stupid for starting so many threads there. Ah, but many probably feel it was an appropriate move on my part.

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Though I disagree with 99.99999% of what he says, he has certainly improved his debating skills.

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In some situations Buz can be okay, it's just when he gets into his bigot mode that he spouts nonsense, and when called on it he just repeats the same claim, or disappears.Ooooooooo, I can't stands it. Especially as I feel hate propaganda MUST be countered where it is found. I mean if he just wanted to say hey I hate muslims and atheists, I wouldn't care so much, but he puts together factoids to justify fear and misunderstanding. That I feel compelled to post against.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

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That made me wonder how many of the "creationist school kids" actually are "home school kids" whose parents are sheltering them from public school science curricula.

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I believe at least one of the recent kids claimed his school was not home schooling (that was on the east coast), while the rest were "homeschooled" (though it was a group at someone's home).I agree this is an important topic. I think there are a couple forum areas where this topic could be opened as a thread.It also seems like we could all pitch in and have a special section for homeschoolers and other creo school victims, to go and have answers to their questions more directly answered. That way when another kid comes on we can point them to that section.

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holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

I hope I am not derailing this post but I felt this was pertinent to the discussion.I fear that many parents and their children don't realize that the key to democracy (to freedom even) is to be educated. That by allowing oneself to be uneducated you lose some if not all of your individual freedom. You allow yourself to be led by those who pretend to have the answers. You become a mindless advocate spouting thoughtless drivel, handicapping you and your childrens future and the future of others. If you refuse to question and view education as a handicap you lose the right to your freedom.I believe the founding fathers understood this. I'll paraphrase either Thomas Paine or Thomas Jefferson (not sure exactly and don't have the resources on hand ) who had said that they have freedom now but that some future generations are sure to become complacent and allow their leaders to have too much power so that another revolution would need to happen for the pendulum to swing back to freedom for the poeple.

Hey, now. My kids are home schooled. All of them believe in evolution, and I'll bet any of them from nine up could tell you more about evolution than the average high school student.Our home school may not be typical, and most home schoolers are probably anti-evolution, but, in my opinion, learning to learn and learning to love learning are more important than even what you learn (to a certain point, of course). Give me the home schooler prejudiced against science, but who likes learning, over the public school kid who believes the three or four things he can remember that his science teacher told him and who only knows learning as enforced boredom.

Yeah...home schoolers always seem so...weird, though. I met a bunch of them in college. They seemed to possess an irrational amount of poise - so much that one might suspect them of a Jessica Simpson-level of naivete, yet they were universally well-informed on world issues.Maybe it's just that they were free of the vast emotional trauma that accompanies a public high school education. But for some reason I feel that leaves them unprepared for something. I can't tell you what but that's just my intuition. Then again maybe it's just jealousy.