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Author Topic:   animals on the ark
quicksink
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 196 (6142)
03-05-2002 3:50 AM


maybe some enlightened one (the all-faithful creationist) could tell us how many species were on the ark, and explain their reasoning...

then they can tell us how the carnivores were fed

how herbivores were fed (man that's a lot of food)

how the boat stayed afloat in waters that could have overturned cruisse ships

and how insects, like the fig wasp, that live for 3 days and require the fig fruit of the fig tree to reproduce, survived

how insects like fruit flies and mosquitos, that reproduce unimaginably quickly, were kept from being a monstrous pest

how Noah was able to repopulate the entire planet in 300 years

how he was able to restore all cultures to their pre-flood state

how this small population was able to rebuild all cities

how noah and other biblical figures were able to live for 100s of yearsa, despite the finding of the contrary after the examination of mummies http://www.evcforum.net/Images/Smilies/wink.gif[/IMG])

how noah was able to collect all the animals

how all the animals were able to move from turkey to australia, the americas, etc. without food (all vegetation would have been wiped out during the flood, and would have taken many years to regrow)...

how fish, most who cannot tolerate even the slightest change is salinity, survived

how marine mammals survived

how coral survived (coral core measuring goes well beyond the estimated time of the flood, about 4000 years ago)

how the americans and chinese and egyptians, not to mention their fabulous structures, survived...

there are more... maybe you could quote me and then answer each question one by one... answer each one... and perhaps you could give a link or two to back up your claims...


Replies to this message:
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Quetzal
Member (Idle past 4162 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 2 of 196 (6144)
03-05-2002 4:24 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by quicksink
03-05-2002 3:50 AM


QS: You're obviously not keeping up with current creation science research. Since all life was created 6000 years ago in the Cambrian Explosion (scientists got the decimal point wrong, they meant to say six thousand, not six hundred million or so), there is only a requirement to have a total of 13 kinds on the ark. There's been no change in kinds since. After all, a chordate is still a chordate, right? The ark thus doesn't have to be any larger than a houseboat.

[Sorry, couldn't resist.]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by quicksink, posted 03-05-2002 3:50 AM quicksink has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by John, posted 06-09-2002 6:27 PM Quetzal has responded

  
quicksink
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 196 (6145)
03-05-2002 4:42 AM


i hope that someone can answer these questions with scientific evidence as support

Replies to this message:
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wj
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 196 (6160)
03-05-2002 9:50 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by quicksink
03-05-2002 4:42 AM


Quicksilver, I suspect the reason that you have not had a substantive response from creationists to your questions is that you are being unduly restrictive - SCIENTIFIC evidence. Surely any old story will do, wont it? Independent, verifiable confirmation is so inconvenient. If you don't accept the authority and independence of the bible then you are reducing the Noachian flood to a plagarism of an earlier Babylonian story with a moral message - a parable. Surely you wouldn't expect to find a parable in the bible.

So, loosen up. Give the creationists some wriggle room.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by quicksink, posted 03-05-2002 4:42 AM quicksink has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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Darwin Storm
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 196 (6166)
03-05-2002 10:51 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by wj
03-05-2002 9:50 PM


Hmmm, didn't Jesus teach in parables? Makes you wonder, if parables were an acceptable teaching method for him to use, then why wouldn't the same hold true for the bible? Oh , my bad, the bible was LITERAL, and therefore be true down to its very core. Even to the controdictions. Oh, and about those translantions. If you ever pick up a King James version (probably the most liberally translated verision) and say, a Giddeon bible, and read them side by side, you will notice some major differences. Another quandry? Nah! : )

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Darwin Storm
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 196 (6167)
03-05-2002 11:21 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Darwin Storm
03-05-2002 10:51 PM


By the way, if I offended anyone with my sarcasm, I apoligize. I wasn't trying to attack anyone's religious beliefs. My statement was about the validity ( or lack there of) of a literal interperation of the bible. ( My points stand, just ignore the sarcasm, I was in a bad mood when I wrote this, and was out of line. Have a nice day. : )

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Darwin Storm, posted 03-05-2002 10:51 PM Darwin Storm has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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quicksink
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 196 (6173)
03-06-2002 3:48 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Darwin Storm
03-05-2002 11:21 PM


i don't think it was a problem...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by Darwin Storm, posted 03-05-2002 11:21 PM Darwin Storm has not yet responded

  
LudvanB
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 196 (6184)
03-06-2002 10:19 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by wj
03-05-2002 9:50 PM


quote:
Originally posted by wj:
Quicksilver, I suspect the reason that you have not had a substantive response from creationists to your questions is that you are being unduly restrictive - SCIENTIFIC evidence. Surely any old story will do, wont it? Independent, verifiable confirmation is so inconvenient. If you don't accept the authority and independence of the bible then you are reducing the Noachian flood to a plagarism of an earlier Babylonian story with a moral message - a parable. Surely you wouldn't expect to find a parable in the bible.

So, loosen up. Give the creationists some wriggle room.


Actually,the Noachian flood story is plagia but not from a babylonian story...the babs themselves took that story from the sumerian epic of gilgamesh....so that story has been recycled not once but TWICE. In the original version,Gilgamesh is warned by the GODS(plural) that a flood is comming(not as a punishement sent by the gods but as a natural disaster...you know...shit happens)and that he should haul his kingly ass onto a boat and brings with him every critter he can find who wouldn't survive the flood otherwise. In that story,the flood is never refered as a global flood either...which means that the story was probably a result of the mesopotamian flood,for which there is evidence.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by wj, posted 03-05-2002 9:50 PM wj has not yet responded

  
John Paul
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 196 (6209)
03-06-2002 5:44 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by quicksink
03-05-2002 3:50 AM


quote:
quicksink:
maybe some enlightened one (the all-faithful creationist) could tell us how many species were on the ark, and explain their reasoning...

John Paul:
You do realize there is a book published that answers your questions. It is called Noah’s Ark: A Feasibility Study by John Woodmorappe.

He puts the total number of ‘invited’ organisms at 15, 754. 7,428 mammals; 4,602 birds and 3,724 reptiles (including dinosaurs). From what the book states the Hebrew terminology in the Genesis account rules out invertebrates having been taken on the Ark. It goes on to say the same holds true for marine and amphibious vertebrates.

He talks about the bigger animals taken aboard as juveniles, dwarf species and even as eggs.

quote:
quicksink:
then they can tell us how the carnivores were fed

John Paul:
How do people feed their cats & dogs? How are the carnivores fed in a zoo? Could be close to the same way that is done.

quote:
quicksink:
how herbivores were fed (man that's a lot of food)

John Paul:
Ever see how cows, pigs and horses are fed? How are herbivores fed in a zoo? Could be pretty much the same way.

quote:
quicksink:
how the boat stayed afloat in waters that could have overturned cruisse ships

John Paul:
Um, it wasn’t a boat. It was a barge shaped Ark. Flat bottomed and rectangular in shape. According to the study that was done in 1994 by Hong et al. and published in Creation Ex Nihlo Technical Journal 8(1): 26-36, the Ark would not flip and was very seaworthy.

quote:
quicksink:
and how insects, like the fig wasp, that live for 3 days and require the fig fruit of the fig tree to reproduce, survived

John Paul:
Please show us the scientific evidence that the fig wasp existed as such before the Flood. Why can’t today’s fig wasp be a descendant of the wasps that survived the Flood? It’s a fig wasp now because it filled that niche that was opened by the Flood and resulting landscape changes.

quote:
quicksink:
how insects like fruit flies and mosquitos, that reproduce unimaginably quickly, were kept from being a monstrous pest

John Paul:
From the correct reading of Scripture, insects were not invited guests. IOW, they weren’t necessarily on the Ark.

quote:
quicksink:
how Noah was able to repopulate the entire planet in 300 years

John Paul:
You do realize the exact date of the Flood is not etched in stone.

quote:
quicksink:
how he was able to restore all cultures to their pre-flood state

John Paul:
What’s your evidence for that?

quote:
quicksink:
how this small population was able to rebuild all cities

John Paul:
Evidence of that also.

[QUOTE]quicksink:
how noah and other biblical figures were able to live for 100s of yearsa, despite the finding of the contrary after the examination of mummies

John Paul:
I was unaware we found Noah’s mummified body. Actually I was unaware we found any mummified bodies of Biblical figures- you know the ones who lived for hundreds of years. No one said everyone lived that long.

quote:
quicksink:
how noah was able to collect all the animals

John Paul:
Who says he did? The animals could have migrated to Noah’s place and/ or Noah could have hired other people to collect them.

quote:
quicksink:
how all the animals were able to move from turkey to australia, the americas, etc. without food (all vegetation would have been wiped out during the flood, and would have taken many years to regrow)...

John Paul:
Please provide the scientific evidence that it would take years to re-grow the vegetation. Are you telling me that when farm land gets flooded it’s years until anything grows there?
The most likely scenario for the distribution of the fauna after the Flood was a planned distribution carried out by Noah’s descendants. As in put the animals on big boats and take them to their destination.

quote:
quicksink:
how fish, most who cannot tolerate even the slightest change is salinity, survived
how marine mammals survived

John Paul:
I see. You are imposing what we observe today onto what existed in Noah’s day.

quote:
quicksink:
how coral survived (coral core measuring goes well beyond the estimated time of the flood, about 4000 years ago)

John Paul:
First you have to realize there isn’t a set date for the Flood.

quote:
quicksink:
how the americans and chinese and egyptians, not to mention their fabulous structures, survived...

John Paul:
What structures and how do you know they were built before the Flood?

quote:
quicksink:
there are more... maybe you could quote me and then answer each question one by one... answer each one... and perhaps you could give a link or two to back up your claims...

John Paul:
Actually all you have to do is read the book I mentioned earlier. Then if you have issues with it at least we will have something to debate.

Here are some of the numbers (from the book) of the Ark’s contents:

Empty Ark- 4,000 tons (all the pens, support beams, etc.); biomass at the start of the Flood- 111 tons; biomass at the end of the Flood- 411 tons; food at the start of the Flood- 2,500 tons; water at the start of the Flood- 4,070 tons. According to the study by Hong et al., the spare mass would be 6,000 tons.

One more thing- I am neither a Christian nor a fundamentalist, yet I am a Creationist. As a matter of fact I know many Muslims, Jewish people, Hindus and Buddhists that are also Creationists. That shoots down one of your claims in another thread (that Creationists were Christians).

------------------
John Paul


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by quicksink, posted 03-05-2002 3:50 AM quicksink has responded

Replies to this message:
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no2creation
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 196 (6211)
03-06-2002 7:14 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by John Paul
03-06-2002 5:44 PM


quote:
Originally posted by John Paul:
John Paul:
Actually all you have to do is read the book I mentioned earlier. Then if you have issues with it at least we will have something to debate.

Here are some of the numbers (from the book) of the Ark’s contents:

Empty Ark- 4,000 tons (all the pens, support beams, etc.); biomass at the start of the Flood- 111 tons; biomass at the end of the Flood- 411 tons; food at the start of the Flood- 2,500 tons; water at the start of the Flood- 4,070 tons. According to the study by Hong et al., the spare mass would be 6,000 tons.

One more thing- I am neither a Christian nor a fundamentalist, yet I am a Creationist. As a matter of fact I know many Muslims, Jewish people, Hindus and Buddhists that are also Creationists. That shoots down one of your claims in another thread (that Creationists were Christians).


So how did Noahs family keep all these animals alive? How did they keep them from eating each other?

The Philadelphia ZOO employs about 400 people FULL TIME, and there are about 1800 animals housed at this ZOO. I can guarantee you that more then 2% (8 people out of 400) are employed full time to feed and take care of these 1800 animals. How did Noah and his small family keep these animals alive?

Scientific Evidence Please...


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Jeff
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 196 (6214)
03-06-2002 8:03 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by John Paul
03-06-2002 5:44 PM


quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quicksink:
maybe some enlightened one (the all-faithful creationist) could tell us how many species were on the ark, and explain their reasoning...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

John Paul:
You do realize there is a book published that answers your questions. It is called Noah’s Ark: A Feasibility Study by John Woodmorappe.

It’s more like a collection of weakly supported assertions than ‘answers’ and there is hardly a consensus among all creationists that agree with Woodmorappe. Yeah, lots of serious problems that are not addressed.

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quicksink:
then they can tell us how the carnivores were fed
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

John Paul:
How do people feed their cats & dogs? How are the carnivores fed in a zoo? Could be close to the same way that is done.

Wow ! They had refrigeration ? Isn’t that how Zoo carnivores are fed ? With refrigerated meat ?

quote:

quicksink:
how the boat stayed afloat in waters that could have overturned cruisse ships
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

John Paul:
Um, it wasn’t a boat. It was a barge shaped Ark. Flat bottomed and rectangular in shape. According to the study that was done in 1994 by Hong et al. and published in Creation Ex Nihlo Technical Journal 8(1): 26-36, the Ark would not flip and was very seaworthy.

Odd that the art of ship building ( up to the 19th century ) couldn’t develop a wooden vessel more than 300 feet long that didn’t break up on the open seas. An Ark of such dimensions would have been inherently unstable, it’s timber over flexed, bringing on severe leaking…it would have sank within a matter of hours.

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quicksink:
and how insects, like the fig wasp, that live for 3 days and require the fig fruit of the fig tree to reproduce, survived
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

John Paul:
Please show us the scientific evidence that the fig wasp existed as such before the Flood. Why can’t today’s fig wasp be a descendant of the wasps that survived the Flood?

Uuhhmmm…because there’s no supporting evidence to indicate this hype-pathetic explanation.
How can you reference a time frame of an alleged flood to explain the same alleged flood ?

[b] [QUOTE]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quicksink:
how Noah was able to repopulate the entire planet in 300 years
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

John Paul:
You do realize the exact date of the Flood is not etched in stone.
[/b][/QUOTE]

Why is a Global catastrophe of monumental proportion and massive death so difficult to pinpoint ?
If this event occurred within the past 40,000 years, we should be able to get a very accurate date from simply using radio-carbon dating. Please don’t claim carbon dating is a tool of the biased evolutionists. It has nothing to do with evolution – its nuclear physics; an entirely different discipline. You’ll have to overturn everything we know about physics before continuing this line of explanation.

Why isn’t there evidence for a global flood ?

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quicksink:
how he was able to restore all cultures to their pre-flood state
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

John Paul:
What’s your evidence for that?

Egyptian History; Greek History; Chinese History. The histories of these distantly dispersed civilizations didn’t mention a globally destructive flood. Perhaps they were on the same list as the insects and were not ‘invited’ ?

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quicksink:
how this small population was able to rebuild all cities
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

John Paul:
Evidence of that also.

None of the Great cities of Egypt, Greece or China were affected by the ‘flood’. Why not ?

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quicksink:
how noah was able to collect all the animals
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

John Paul:
Who says he did?
The animals could have migrated to Noah’s place and/ or Noah could have hired other people to collect them.

According to some book called Genesis, all the animals were boarded in the same day:
Gen 7:13
In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark;
Gen 7:14
They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort.

Did Woodmorrappe explain this too ?
Did noah develop Crystal Meth for his sons to tackle all this work in one day ?

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quicksink:
how all the animals were able to move from turkey to australia, the americas, etc. without food (all vegetation would have been wiped out during the flood, and would have taken many years to regrow)...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

John Paul:
The most likely scenario for the distribution of the fauna after the Flood was a planned distribution carried out by Noah’s descendants. As in put the animals on big boats and take them to their destination.

Are you simply making this up as you go, now ?
Why is there no evidence for this claim ? You can’t even cite a chapter verse to support this nonsense.
LOL ~!

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quicksink:
how fish, most who cannot tolerate even the slightest change is salinity, survived
how marine mammals survived
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

John Paul:
I see. You are imposing what we observe today onto what existed in Noah’s day.

Yes, right up until you provide reason for us not to. Can you present evidence that suggests this Noah fella even existed ?
Got any evidence at all? NONE ??

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quicksink:
how coral survived (coral core measuring goes well beyond the estimated time of the flood, about 4000 years ago)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

John Paul:
First you have to realize there isn’t a set date for the Flood.

Odd that you keep reminding us of this lack of evidence.
Thank you.

quote:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quicksink:
how the americans and chinese and egyptians, not to mention their fabulous structures, survived...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

John Paul:
What structures and how do you know they were built before the Flood?

What Flood ? Show us.
You can’t use the flood to explain the flood.
Show us EVIDENCE that suggests a flood occurred before you reference it as evidence for other claims.

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quicksink:
there are more... maybe you could quote me and then answer each question one by one... answer each one... and perhaps you could give a link or two to back up your claims...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

John Paul:
Actually all you have to do is read the book I mentioned earlier. Then if you have issues with it at least we will have something to debate.

Woody doesn’t provide evidence either. All he has are “coulda’s” and “woulda’s”
Why not just present evidence ? That would be the simplest and most effective approach.


This message is a reply to:
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Darwin Storm
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 196 (6218)
03-06-2002 10:46 PM


A few points and question I would like addressed.

1.) The ocean has a high salininty. When the "world" flooded, it would have mixed with the oceans, diluting it some, but still have a high salt content. This water would have covered the earth, depostiting saltwater all across the surface of the earth. The water alone would have killed of most the plants on the surface of the earth. Then, as the waters receded, you would be left with a land of mud ( which still had salt water mixed with it). As it dried, you would have been left with soil so contaminated with salt that it would be useless for growing crops.

2.) If the ark had only roughly 16 thousand organisms, how do we account for the millions of species today? This seems to require alot of evolution to generate the numbers of species on the planet, and at a rate that would be observable over a few generations!

3.)If insects were persona non-grata, how the heck did they survive forty days and forty nights of floods?

4.)Oh by the way, if you can't give an exact time of the flood, can you give an estimate? Withing even a few hundred years, either way? Please?


Replies to this message:
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no2creation
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 196 (6226)
03-07-2002 1:52 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by Darwin Storm
03-06-2002 10:46 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Darwin Storm:
4.)Oh by the way, if you can't give an exact time of the flood, can you give an estimate? Withing even a few hundred years, either way? Please?

Gen 8:13 - And it came to pass in the six hundredth and first year, in the first month, the first day of the month, the waters were dried up from off the earth: and Noah removed the covering of the ark, and looked, and, behold, the face of the ground was dry.

January 1st 601BC?

Don't you find it strange that JP gives us the general design of the ARK, but no date for the flood. Yet, we can find reference to the date, but no reference of a large rectangular barge type ARK.


This message is a reply to:
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quicksink
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 196 (6228)
03-07-2002 4:03 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by John Paul
03-06-2002 5:44 PM


quote:
quote:
quicksink:
maybe some enlightened one (the all-faithful creationist) could tell us how many species were on the ark, and explain their reasoning...

John Paul:
You do realize there is a book published that answers your questions. It is called Noah’s Ark: A Feasibility Study by John Woodmorappe.

He puts the total number of ‘invited’ organisms at 15, 754. 7,428 mammals; 4,602 birds and 3,724 reptiles (including dinosaurs). From what the book states the Hebrew terminology in the Genesis account rules out invertebrates having been taken on the Ark. It goes on to say the same holds true for marine and amphibious vertebrates.


sorry, but that is ridiculous. after the flood, an astonishing rate of evolution would have been required to bring the world to the ecological diversity of today.

quote:

He talks about the bigger animals taken aboard as juveniles, dwarf species and even as eggs.

contradiction alert!

you said that animals migrated to the ark... eggs did too? and juveniles would take too long to reproduce once off the ark- most species would have to wait in turkey for a while.

quote:

quote:
quicksink:
then they can tell us how the carnivores were fed

John Paul:
How do people feed their cats & dogs? How are the carnivores fed in a zoo? Could be close to the same way that is done.


with processed meat- not sure they had that during the bronze age.

quote:

quicksink:
how herbivores were fed (man that's a lot of food)

John Paul:
Ever see how cows, pigs and horses are fed? How are herbivores fed in a zoo? Could be pretty much the same way.


they're fed with hay and other vegetables. These things would have to be on the ship, and that takes a lot of room, not to mention collection.

quote:

quicksink:
how the boat stayed afloat in waters that could have overturned cruisse ships

John Paul:
Um, it wasn’t a boat. It was a barge shaped Ark. Flat bottomed and rectangular in shape. According to the study that was done in 1994 by Hong et al. and published in Creation Ex Nihlo Technical Journal 8(1): 26-36, the Ark would not flip and was very seaworthy.


ok- could you prove to me that this ark is more stable than a cruise ship?

quote:

quicksink:
and how insects, like the fig wasp, that live for 3 days and require the fig fruit of the fig tree to reproduce, survived

John Paul:
Please show us the scientific evidence that the fig wasp existed as such before the Flood. Why can’t today’s fig wasp be a descendant of the wasps that survived the Flood? It’s a fig wasp now because it filled that niche that was opened by the Flood and resulting landscape changes.


the fig wasp has been found fossilized, although i'm not goiong to go any further in playing your reference game.

the fig wasp has special adaptations enabling it to lay eggs in the fig fruit. these adaptations would have taken many thousands of years to develop. and the flood occured roughly 4500 years ago.

quote:

quicksink:
how insects like fruit flies and mosquitos, that reproduce unimaginably quickly, were kept from being a monstrous pest

John Paul:
From the correct reading of Scripture, insects were not invited guests. IOW, they weren’t necessarily on the Ark.


be careful. you're venturing into rough waters-

a) insects would not have suvived the flood

b) many insects, like the dragon fly, live for less than a day. Mating would have been impossible on the high seas, and most insects would have quickly gone extinct.

quote:

quicksink:
how Noah was able to repopulate the entire planet in 300 years

John Paul:
You do realize the exact date of the Flood is not etched in stone.


you're right- it's etched in the bible. most creationists put the flood at about 4300-4600 years ago, during the height of the americas, egyptians, and chinese. right there you run into troubles.

quote:

quicksink:
how he was able to restore all cultures to their pre-flood state

John Paul:
What’s your evidence for that?


for example- the pyramids were built before the flood (please don't play your refernce card again!). i will give you a reference if you like.

the pyramids would not have survived the flood. they would have been eroded and or covered in sediment.

quote:

quicksink:
how this small population was able to rebuild all cities

John Paul:
Evidence of that also.


come on. noah and his ancestors would have had to to live in cities. they would have had to rebuild them all over the world.

[QUOTE]
quicksink:
how noah and other biblical figures were able to live for 100s of yearsa, despite the finding of the contrary after the examination of mummies

you misunderstood. i said that if people lived for hundreds of years, we would see evidence of this in the egyptian mummies.

and you haven't answered the question. what would allow even a few people to live for 600 years?

quote:

quicksink:
how noah was able to collect all the animals

John Paul:
Who says he did? The animals could have migrated to Noah’s place and/ or Noah could have hired other people to collect them.


please don't tell me that god commanded all animals to the ark. please. now we're talking about creationist MAGIC. how would sloths get to th ark? they can only climb effectively in trees....... how would they cross deserts, not to mention bub-arctic wastelands?
penguins would have died on the way to the ark...

and how many men would noah have to hire? how many boats would they have to build? where would they go? and why would these men decide to do an excrutiatingly difficult job when they're about to die?

quote:

quicksink:
how all the animals were able to move from turkey to australia, the americas, etc. without food (all vegetation would have been wiped out during the flood, and would have taken many years to regrow)...

John Paul:
Please provide the scientific evidence that it would take years to re-grow the vegetation. Are you telling me that when farm land gets flooded it’s years until anything grows there?
The most likely scenario for the distribution of the fauna after the Flood was a planned distribution carried out by Noah’s descendants. As in put the animals on big boats and take them to their destination.


plants cannot grow in even slightly salty soil.

and it says that noah delivered all the animals around the planet where? this would have etaken an eternity!

quote:

quicksink:
how fish, most who cannot tolerate even the slightest change is salinity, survived
how marine mammals survived

John Paul:
I see. You are imposing what we observe today onto what existed in Noah’s day.


uh- yes?

but maybe you could provide scientific evidence that fish could tolerate variations in salinity in noah's day (yeah right!!)

quote:

quicksink:
how coral survived (coral core measuring goes well beyond the estimated time of the flood, about 4000 years ago)

John Paul:
First you have to realize there isn’t a set date for the Flood.


wrong

creationists put it about 4,300 to 4,600 years ago- but if you want to make the flood agree with the coral, then you can put the flood 40000 years ago when humans were barely tools.

first you should realize how old that coral is- i've done my homework.

[QUOTE]
quicksink:
how the americans and chinese and egyptians, not to mention their fabulous structures, survived...

John Paul:
What structures and how do you know they were built before the Flood?[quote]
the mayan and egyptian pyramids, the buildings of the chinese dynasty, and, from the site http://www.kidport.com/RefLib/WorldGeography/Greece/Greece.htm

" Greece is one of the oldest civilizations, dating back over 5000 years. "

these buildings were dated with a number of methods.

1. carbon dating

2. tree-ring dating

3. ancient records (geneolgy, refernces to lunar eclipses and the like)

all of these corroborate one another. basically, they give roughly the same day.

quote:

quicksink:
there are more... maybe you could quote me and then answer each question one by one... answer each one... and perhaps you could give a link or two to back up your claims...

John Paul:
Actually all you have to do is read the book I mentioned earlier. Then if you have issues with it at least we will have something to debate.

Here are some of the numbers (from the book) of the Ark’s contents:

Empty Ark- 4,000 tons (all the pens, support beams, etc.); biomass at the start of the Flood- 111 tons; biomass at the end of the Flood- 411 tons; food at the start of the Flood- 2,500 tons; water at the start of the Flood- 4,070 tons. According to the study by Hong et al., the spare mass would be 6,000 tons.

One more thing- I am neither a Christian nor a fundamentalist, yet I am a Creationist. As a matter of fact I know many Muslims, Jewish people, Hindus and Buddhists that are also Creationists. That shoots down one of your claims in another thread (that Creationists were Christians).


so wait, you believe that the bible, which is a christian book, is a historical reference. yet you are not a christian. i believe a non-christian creationist is an oxymoron.

and give me some names of non-christian creationists.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by John Paul, posted 03-06-2002 5:44 PM John Paul has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by John Paul, posted 03-09-2002 8:52 AM quicksink has responded

  
nator
Member (Idle past 460 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 15 of 196 (6230)
03-07-2002 5:20 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by John Paul
03-06-2002 5:44 PM


quote:
Ever see how cows, pigs and horses are fed? How are herbivores fed in a zoo? Could be pretty much the same way.

(BTW, pigs aren't herbivores. They are omnivores and have digestive systems very similar to ours)

OK, here is something I have intimate knowledge of; feeding horses.

Let's assume that there were only two horses on the Ark.

Let us also assume that they were of average size and were relatively easy keepers.

Let us ignore the fact that keeping a horse standing still in a small stall for a year would be quite dangerous to it's health, as they need to move around to keep their guts working properly.

Let us also ignore the muscle atrophy and depression and boredome which would also have detrimental effects.

Let us also assume that we would not feed these horses grain, because anyone who feeds horses knows that confining a horse and feeding it lots of grain (high-powered) food is a prescription for life-threatening health problems (colic) and excitability and unruliness. Letting the horse roam on several acres (at least) of land and feeding it hay and grass (low-powered) food generally results in a much more sane, tractable, placid horse.

Now that we have determined that Noah would need to take on a lot of hay to feed these horses, let's see if we can figure out how much these two horses would need.

Well, if we are talking about a sedentary horse, and just wanting to get it to survive, not necessarily keeping it in good weight, I estimate, very conservatively, that you could get away with feeding the horses 15 pounds of hay a day, each. A bale of hay is something like 30 pounds.

This means that Noah, just to feed two horses and no other herbivores on the Ark, would need nearly 11,000 pounds of hay for 365 days.

Of course, this doesn't even account for the fresh water that would have to be stowed on board, as nobody could drink sea water and they couldn't collect enough rain in 40 days and 40 nights to last them the other 325 days.

Horses drink about 6-10 gallons of water a day, so this makes the two horses' minimum fresh water requirements for the year at 4,380 gallons.

OK, so perhaps you want to explain all of these logistical problems away with miracles and "Godidit", which is fine if you want to believe that, but then we have left science and reason in favor of faith and the supernatural. Therefore, I have no compelling reason to believe in this story on rational grounds.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by John Paul, posted 03-06-2002 5:44 PM John Paul has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by John Paul, posted 03-09-2002 9:13 AM nator has responded
 Message 70 by 2MuchTalk, posted 03-11-2002 12:56 PM nator has responded

    
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