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Author Topic:   Seashells on tops of mountains.
Robert Byers
Member (Idle past 3308 days)
Posts: 640
From: Toronto,canada
Joined: 02-06-2004


Message 331 of 343 (638938)
10-27-2011 4:53 AM
Reply to: Message 312 by Admin
10-21-2011 8:54 AM


Re: Moderator Request
I have dealt with these things.

The k-t line issue is about WHY this creationist says its the flood line. not why it is evidence for a flood. tHats been my answering.
Questions drift here but I stayed on my point.

The seashells thing is recent and I made little reference to it.
the dating of seashells is based on presumptions about age/decay which creationists don';t accept.
I have no interest in seashells and was politely answering someone.

I said the chaos of a great flood can and did order things BELOW the k-t line. Not above. in fact thats my point. above the line is not the same mechanisms as below. its about volcanic stuff and a little action from the seas.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 312 by Admin, posted 10-21-2011 8:54 AM Admin has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 333 by Pressie, posted 10-27-2011 5:08 AM Robert Byers has not yet responded
 Message 334 by Admin, posted 10-27-2011 9:20 AM Robert Byers has not yet responded

  
Pressie
Member (Idle past 4 days)
Posts: 2091
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


Message 332 of 343 (638940)
10-27-2011 5:01 AM
Reply to: Message 330 by Robert Byers
10-27-2011 4:47 AM


Re: Summary
...if the k-t line is the flood line
If pigs could fly then the moon would be made of fairy dust.
Any evidence that the KT line is the flood line? Empirical evidence such as rock deposits?
We do have empirical evidence that the KT line is not the flood line, you know, as we have rocks from the KT- boundary that certainly are not food deposits.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 330 by Robert Byers, posted 10-27-2011 4:47 AM Robert Byers has not yet responded

  
Pressie
Member (Idle past 4 days)
Posts: 2091
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


Message 333 of 343 (638941)
10-27-2011 5:08 AM
Reply to: Message 331 by Robert Byers
10-27-2011 4:53 AM


Re: Moderator Request
The k-t line issue is about WHY this creationist says its the flood line.
What that creationist says is not important. Empirical evidence is.
.. not why it is evidence for a flood.
Then why are you participating in this thread? The heading in the OP reads: Seashells on top of mountains.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 331 by Robert Byers, posted 10-27-2011 4:53 AM Robert Byers has not yet responded

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12720
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002


Message 334 of 343 (638965)
10-27-2011 9:20 AM
Reply to: Message 331 by Robert Byers
10-27-2011 4:53 AM


Re: Moderator Request
Hi Robert,

In my Message 312 I said that "If you post again without evidence I will remove your posting privileges in this forum."

I'm removing your posting privileges in this forum now.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
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Nuggin
Member (Idle past 1432 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 335 of 343 (638970)
10-27-2011 9:55 AM
Reply to: Message 330 by Robert Byers
10-27-2011 4:47 AM


Re: Summary
Re: Summary
The biblical flood would not sort things like modern rivers etc.
This is a great chaos of immense powerful water.
Its sorting is by slabs as big as counties.
not by critters.
if the k-t line is the flood line then there would not be such a fauna mixture. The world before was not the world after.

What does that even mean?

Are you saying that the world before the "Great Flood" did not contain mammals?

Now you are contradicting the Bible.

If the world before the flood did contain modern mammals, then we should find AT LEAST ONE modern mammal bone in with the millions of dinosaur bones.

If the world before the flood did not contain modern mammals, then there really is no point for your argument since it negates the claims of the Bible anyway


This message is a reply to:
 Message 330 by Robert Byers, posted 10-27-2011 4:47 AM Robert Byers has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 345 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(2)
Message 336 of 343 (640403)
11-09-2011 8:32 AM
Reply to: Message 302 by pandion
10-15-2011 1:47 AM


Re: Summary
Hi pandion,

Just to clarify:

Zen Deist writes:

Seashells cannot be evidence of a global flood, because:
• The seashell fossils found, range in age from 1 to 30 years old.


I presume that you mean millions of years old. But as I understand it, the Himalayan seashell fossils are older than 65 million years. They are all extinct species.

The fossils are millions of years old, yes, but the ages at death of the organisms that were fossilized range from 1 to 30 years. We know this because there are growth layering in the organisms. We also know that they grew in mature marine ecosystems because they are preserved together with undisturbed soils (with bore holes) and fragile methods of attachment: brachiopods grow on a stalk attached to the bottom (including some to shells of previous layers of brachiopods). Sea fans and attached brachiopods would not be preserved in any catastrophic turmoil, but they would be preserved by gradual siltation covering them in-situ.

• The combined age of the layers extends into decades if not millenia.

You got me here. The age of the layers date from about 50 million years to about 200 million years.

When you add up the ages at death of the fossilized organisms, layer by layer, irrespective of the geological age of the layers, you end up with a record of life living and dying that extends -- at a minimum -- over a period of decades if not millenia.

OK. But I miss your point.

The purported length of the flood -- 100 days +/- -- does not provide sufficient time for the accumulated, layered and structured pattern of life, growth and death that appears repeatedly in the evidence to occur.

Therefore such evidence cannot support this purported flood event in any rational way.

Enjoy.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 345 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 337 of 343 (640405)
11-09-2011 8:49 AM
Reply to: Message 305 by Robert Byers
10-19-2011 4:54 AM


Re: Just asking
Hi Robert Byers,

The problem with opinions is that they need to be corroborated by evidence to be valid: opinions are notoriously incapable of altering reality or changing evidence of reality.

For instance:

Marine deposits, like shells, would only be found below the k-t line.

And, as Dr Adequate has pointed out, there are marine deposits found that are above the k-t line, so your statement is false.

Message 306 Segregated flows would deposit shells etc in segregated layers like everything else.

Curiously, a single flood is not a segregated flow.

and you also claim (Message 309) that there was "a chaos of powerfully moving water could only do such actions of being segregated and desposting material in segregated flows" without any explanation of how this works ... and completely ignoring the fact that there are many evidences of completely undisturbed and fragile marine growth in the fossils -- evidence that would not survive in "a chaos of powerfully moving water" and yet exists.

nothing I say has to do with bible verses except biblical boundaries.

So you are making up fantasies rather than using the bible as evidence, thank you for clarifying that.

Enjoy.

Edited by Zen Deist, : clrty


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 305 by Robert Byers, posted 10-19-2011 4:54 AM Robert Byers has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 345 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 338 of 343 (640407)
11-09-2011 9:08 AM
Reply to: Message 306 by Robert Byers
10-19-2011 4:57 AM


Re: Summary
Hi again Robert Byers

Nope.
Seashell ages are irrelevant to the flood or just wrongly dated.
Segregated flows would deposit shells etc in segregated layers like everything else.
It could only be that way.

Nope.

Seashell ages are irrelevant to the flood ...

Which means that seashells are not evidence of the flood -- which, curiously, is precisely my point: evidence of seashells on and in mountains is not evidence of your purported flood because they cannot have occurred during such a short duration event.

... or just wrongly dated.

The seashells did not grow during a short duration turbulent or chaotic flood, but during time periods of many generations of mature growth of marine organisms stretching out over decades and millenia in undisturbed growth -- including fragile organisms and organisms intolerant of silty water. These layers can be dated by relativistic means -- adding up the ages of the organisms in each layer, in much the same way you can count rings in a tree and know the age of the tree when it died even if you don't know the years\ages\eons it lived -- you know the duration of the life of the tree by counting the rings: by adding up the ages of marine growth layer by layer we know the minimum duration of that growth regardless of when it occurred. The duration is consistently and pervasively much longer than your purported flood event, but consistent with geological ages.

It could only be that way.

The way it could be, is that the fossils were laid down in many different events, occurring over millions of years, concurrent with geological actions that result in mountains rising and eroding. Curiously this way is consistent with ALL the evidence.

Enjoy.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 306 by Robert Byers, posted 10-19-2011 4:57 AM Robert Byers has not yet responded

  
morningstar2008
Member (Idle past 2925 days)
Posts: 43
From: Åêàòåðèíáóðã
Joined: 12-11-2012


Message 339 of 343 (683639)
12-12-2012 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by iceage
10-01-2007 2:17 AM


Translated
profile is selected correctly. "Seashells on the tops of mountains". If you think about it the semantic implication itself will show the direction vector for the next hint. Of course it is hard for each shell pick up the Lake in which it operated and razmnožalas′, but the topography of the planet itself gives a hint. We understand that there is a split, and even raztroenie. I do not know whether the machine will reset the subtext of mood from Russian into English. But I'll post the translation and the original English. And so the Lord listen and ponder. From the last downturn of the ocean floor not much time has passed. Bottom of the Ocean was formed not long ago. And before that was Pangaea. And Pangejskaâ water occupied the other territories. The bottom of the Ocean was several feet above. So we know it was a sea of which occupied the area of present-day Russia. Pangaea now cracked and water came down into the cracks between formed between the newly formed the continents. But the earth itself are still disguises all his cracks that she received during her life. I don't take my Tektoniku of plates in today's her interpretation. With all its disrespectful lowering and lifting. There are lithospheric plates are anchored by continents. What are lithospheric plates is a matter of different subjects while the slope of the topic is inextricably linked. We have a good example for today as the tectonic plate beneath loads can burst. I mean Indonesian plate. Which is by the way gave us a hint. And this hint just gives us a chance to correct our past mistakes. This crack by the way was not the first and won't be the last crack. We know that too. Well here. A further promotion of the topic depends on those who between these lines discovered it as a trump card at the tops of the mountains are so not real seashells and other waterfowl are shown. There was no lift plate and sinking water with zanimaniem newly emerged voids. Here it seems and all I wanted to say about the topic.
http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/...702.0/0_7ff8a_af8b65fe_XXL.jpg
Translated http://www.khstu.ru/rus/?menu=TranslatorOnlineResultB

Edited by morningstar2008, : Translated


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Replies to this message:
 Message 340 by roxrkool, posted 12-12-2012 9:46 PM morningstar2008 has responded

  
roxrkool
Member
Posts: 1497
From: Nevada
Joined: 03-23-2003


Message 340 of 343 (683742)
12-12-2012 9:46 PM
Reply to: Message 339 by morningstar2008
12-12-2012 11:26 AM


I don't think it's working out so well...

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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morningstar2008
Member (Idle past 2925 days)
Posts: 43
From: Åêàòåðèíáóðã
Joined: 12-11-2012


Message 341 of 343 (683868)
12-14-2012 8:22 AM
Reply to: Message 340 by roxrkool
12-12-2012 9:46 PM


You meant that if continents moved apart the level of the oceans is invariably must remain on the same level.
Original text
http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/...37702.0/0_7ff89_4a2134c_XL.jpg

Edited by morningstar2008, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 340 by roxrkool, posted 12-12-2012 9:46 PM roxrkool has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 342 by Admin, posted 12-14-2012 2:26 PM morningstar2008 has responded

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12720
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002


Message 342 of 343 (683926)
12-14-2012 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 341 by morningstar2008
12-14-2012 8:22 AM


Suspended 24 hours: morningstar2008
Hi Morningstar,

It's been over a year since I posted to this thread, so I will take on a moderator role here and suspend you for 24 hours. Please, when you return, post in English.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 341 by morningstar2008, posted 12-14-2012 8:22 AM morningstar2008 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 343 by morningstar2008, posted 12-16-2012 4:16 AM Admin has acknowledged this reply

  
morningstar2008
Member (Idle past 2925 days)
Posts: 43
From: Åêàòåðèíáóðã
Joined: 12-11-2012


Message 343 of 343 (684156)
12-16-2012 4:16 AM
Reply to: Message 342 by Admin
12-14-2012 2:26 PM


Re: Suspended 24 hours: morningstar2008
My apologies about his misconduct. Now all my errors corrected. Shall continue to adhere to the established rules.
http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/...7702.0/0_7ff8b_6ee4a643_XL.jpg
Translated http://www.khstu.ru/rus/?menu=TranslatorOnlineResultB

This message is a reply to:
 Message 342 by Admin, posted 12-14-2012 2:26 PM Admin has acknowledged this reply

  
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