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Author Topic:   Creation of the English Language
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 2903 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 181 of 205 (434906)
11-17-2007 11:07 PM
Reply to: Message 179 by jar
11-17-2007 10:50 PM


Re: Will you ever get anything right?
quote:
Between 1998 and 2001, English on the web decreased from 75% to 52% and the trend has continued. The fastest growing segments are Spanish, Japanese and Chinese. The majority of websites today are NOT in English.

The conclusion is wrong. All that is occuring here is, that many nations which do not yet speak english, have become computerised. This sector cannot be expected to communicate in english overnight. IOW, the prowess of english has not been decreased, only the number of non-english populations have entered the net. It means that just as in all other sectors, english will dominate them as it has elsewhere.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by jar, posted 11-17-2007 10:50 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by jar, posted 11-17-2007 11:11 PM IamJoseph has replied

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 2903 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 182 of 205 (434907)
11-17-2007 11:11 PM
Reply to: Message 178 by Jon
11-17-2007 10:38 PM


Re: Please, try yet again...
I did provide evidence. Why are nations like Singapore and India, mandating english in schools - and not spanish or french? And what do you think this means for the future?

You are expecting response to criteria which you have accepted; I am disputing those criterias - so there is no point in submitting evidences which are inside the rejected premise.


This message is a reply to:
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jar
Member
Posts: 33891
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 183 of 205 (434908)
11-17-2007 11:11 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by IamJoseph
11-17-2007 11:07 PM


Still wrong.
I'm sorry but all you are posting is nonsense.

In fact, between 2000-20007 the number of Chinese websites increased by almost 500% and the percentage of English language sites decreased to 31%.

Sorry but once again the facts seem to show your posts are full of shit.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by IamJoseph, posted 11-17-2007 11:07 PM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by IamJoseph, posted 11-17-2007 11:23 PM jar has replied

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 2903 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 184 of 205 (434910)
11-17-2007 11:16 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by akhenaten
11-17-2007 10:56 PM


Re: Please, try yet again...
quote:
Joseph, I did get you to admit that the English language arose from the accumulation of slow, gradual, random, non-directed changes. I would hope that this might cause you to reconsider the evolution of species, but if not, or if you choose to deny my claims, I won't be surprised.

This is totally warped. That english displays those factors - the observable development in our historical midst - credits my premise - not its antithesis! This is what I said - and that this factor is not seen in original languages. This was countered that european languages rose the same way - but this is also wrong, because the dialecs of europe does not answer where the original language came from, and this is not in our observable midst as with english.


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IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 2903 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 185 of 205 (434912)
11-17-2007 11:23 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by jar
11-17-2007 11:11 PM


Re: Still wrong.
quote:
I'm sorry but all you are posting is nonsense.
In fact, between 2000-20007 the number of Chinese websites increased by almost 500% and the percentage of English language sites decreased to 31%.

Sorry but once again the facts seem to show your posts are full of shit.


I don't think so. All that has happened in China is, chinese people have become net users, and are doing so in chinese. The factor of impact here is, gradually but surely, sectors of chinese speaking net users are secummbing to english! You have not factored the critical items here. In the short and coming future, it means we will have more chinese people speaking and communicating in english.

FYI, by first hand experience, I know that China is already implementing laws to avoid this future: it has rejected shows such as AMERICAN IDOL, and is insisting chinese be spoken, and also represented in songs and music. Guess why!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by jar, posted 11-17-2007 11:11 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by jar, posted 11-17-2007 11:30 PM IamJoseph has replied

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33891
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 186 of 205 (434914)
11-17-2007 11:30 PM
Reply to: Message 185 by IamJoseph
11-17-2007 11:23 PM


More misrepresentation and goal post moving
FYI, by first hand experience, I know that China is already implementing laws to avoid this future: it has rejected shows such as AMERICAN IDOL, and is insisting chinese be spoken, and also represented in songs and music. Guess why!

Likely because American Idol is an example of the general inanity of Americans. Can't say I blame them.

But that is still totally irrelevant to anything in this thread, another example of your failure to address the facts that have been presented and to instead try to move the goal posts.

Do you ever plan on presenting anything that is not either gibberish, nonsense or just plain false.

Are you trying to present the image of the Stupid Christian or is that just the way your posts portray Christianity?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by IamJoseph, posted 11-17-2007 11:23 PM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by IamJoseph, posted 11-18-2007 1:49 AM jar has taken no action

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 2903 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 187 of 205 (434925)
11-18-2007 1:49 AM
Reply to: Message 186 by jar
11-17-2007 11:30 PM


Re: More misrepresentation and goal post moving
quote:
Likely because American Idol is an example of the general inanity of Americans. Can't say I blame them.

Agreed, but that is not the reason. Many sectors in Europe are also desperately trying to deflect the take over of english. The western weapon is the english language - as happened when England and France were entangled in their war for lands. China does not want democrasy, and is deflecting anything western - represented by English and Coca Cola, Macdonalds and American Idol.

quote:

But that is still totally irrelevant to anything in this thread

Mine are merely responses to this particular stream of debate. I think I will drop myself from this thread now, and let you guys make some sense of it for yourselves.

cheers.


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Rrhain
Member (Idle past 1107 days)
Posts: 6349
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 188 of 205 (435088)
11-19-2007 12:28 AM
Reply to: Message 154 by IamJoseph
11-17-2007 5:37 AM


Re: Is English really all that different?
IamJoseph responds to me:

quote:
quote:
Not really. While writing is somewhat young, mathematics is not. We have counting sticks as old as 30,000 years.

And that's hardly a proof of history.


Huh? We find historical items and that isn't proof of history? That makes no sense.

quote:
My understanding is, that language emerged prior to maths, while both these faculties are inherent in humans.

And you're not seeing the point? If langauge preceded math and if math is at least 30,000 years old, what does that say about how old language is?


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

This message is a reply to:
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Rrhain
Member (Idle past 1107 days)
Posts: 6349
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 189 of 205 (435099)
11-19-2007 1:01 AM
Reply to: Message 172 by Jon
11-17-2007 9:57 PM


Re: Still didn't address anything... try again:
AgamemJon writes:

quote:
How can you lose the language war and still be up at top? How can a loser of the language war be above the winner of the language war?

Because, and please note that I am NOT defending IaJ, counting native speakers isn't really the best way of determining which is the predominant language.

Yes, by sheer number of people who speak it as a first language, Chinese outpaces all other languages, but they're all concentrated in a single place.

Yes, Spanish is spoken as a primary language in more countries than English, but those countries are somewhat less populous than the ones where English is the primary language (thus the showing that English is right up there with Spanish in total number of primary speakers).

If you look across the world and look at people who speak a language in any particular level, you find English surpasses Spanish. At 1.8 billion total speakers, that means about a third of all people who speak a language speak English, making it the #1 language of all.

While about 400 million people speak Spanish as a primary language, only about another 100 million people speak it as a secondary language meaning that only about 500 million people who speak a language speak Spanish, making it #3.

Chinese, at about 1.3 billion, is #2 but again, most of those people live in China.

And with regard to science, about 95% of all science papers are written in English even though only half of the authors come from an English-speaking country. For international plane travel, you have to speak English. It's a limited form of English, but it is English.

The idea of what the "dominant language" very much depends upon what you mean by that phrase. Do you mean first language? Including second language? Use in international fields? The effect of the British Empire and the US cultural dominance cannot be denied in pushing English all over the world. And while arguments could be made that Chinese is a more dominant language, the fact that the overwhelming number of them are in a single country means that you can't really compare English and Chinese.

Edited by Rrhain, : Fixed some grammar problems that changed the meaning of what I was trying to say.


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

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 Message 172 by Jon, posted 11-17-2007 9:57 PM Jon has taken no action

  
MartinV 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5063 days)
Posts: 502
From: Slovakia, Bratislava
Joined: 08-28-2006


Message 190 of 205 (451358)
01-27-2008 12:58 PM


After reading the whole thread I appreciate IamJoseph arguments and his way of thinking. He had no real adversaries here but Kuresu and DWISE1. I don't underestand why Adminosy threatened banning him.

Frankly speaking I doubt there was a king IaJ insisted upon, but neverthenless he hit the nail. There is something peculiar about English language and IaJ inspired me very with his reasoning that Britain is in fact not a part of Europe. Such idea has never come on my mind.

According Schopenhauer when a language originated it was perfect. During time it degenerates, it means it get rid of inflections (or deflections in English?), prefixes and suffixes. Using his reasoning I would say English is an old language.

On the other hand I must agree with IaJ concept of language and "mindset" of its users. Just for a record - there are no genders in English. It is very peculiar, because German always use "der, die, das" in sentences. In Slavonic languages it is even more evident. Women and men use different grammar. Btw. old-Slovakian language was accepted by Catholic church as the fourth liturgical language after Greek, Latin and Hebrew in the 9th century.

I don't say there are more perfect and less perfect languages. What I say is that language and it's structure influences the way we are thinking and somehow what we are thinking about.

Reading book where are biological and philosophical articles in German and English I was surprised what differences are between those languages - none of them is my nativ language btw. and I am not very fluent in them, so take it easy. Reading German your mind is so to say occupied with many collateral thoughts. This is not the case of English - the language itself focuses your mind on the topic discussed and there are no other hidden meaning in English sentences. English with it's analytical structure and almost no redundancies give you no possibility to asses or rethink when reading.

I've read an scholarly opinion that some philosophical-biological works of German school of idealistic morphology or orthogenesis is not fit to translate into Czech without loss of some meaning. I would say that opinion why neo(darwinism) is and was prevalent in English speaking country is the english itself is of interest. Using German studying secrets of evolution you are playing with a dynamite (see the many racist and biological and even linguistical theories in pre war Germany). There is no such danger using English.

And that's why English win in post - war world. Napoleon lost but French was popular in 19 century in Europe. Economic had nothing to do it. It was a Europe of literature and philosophy - German. Nowadays world is a world of technology and of hands-of-approach. And here is the English best, no doubt.


Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by Vacate, posted 01-27-2008 8:15 PM MartinV has replied

  
Vacate
Member (Idle past 3835 days)
Posts: 565
Joined: 10-01-2006


Message 191 of 205 (451474)
01-27-2008 8:15 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by MartinV
01-27-2008 12:58 PM


Uniquest unique?
There is something peculiar about English language

Could you specify what it is that you think is peculiar? From your post it seems to suggest that you believe English is best for a technological or biological world, German seems best for literature and philosophy, and French for war. I am prepared to accept this position if you are willing to state why one is peculiar from the other two. How would you begin to define this peculiar nature if I was to simply reply by saying war/French is the oddity?

According Schopenhauer when a language originated it was perfect. During time it degenerates, it means it get rid of inflections (or deflections in English?), prefixes and suffixes. Using his reasoning I would say English is an old language.

According to him the language is old and degenerated,

There is no such danger using English.

according to you the language is young and superior.

I am a bit unclear as to what side you are trying to promote. I have ran into the "languages are falling apart" claim before, but you also appear to be contradicting Schopenhauers reasoning.

I would say that opinion why neo(darwinism) is and was prevalent in English speaking country is the english itself is of interest.

I do not understand. The only connection I can come up with is that you are trying to imply God made English so we could understand The Theory of Evolution correctly.

Frankly speaking I doubt there was a king IaJ insisted upon, but neverthenless he hit the nail. There is something peculiar about English...

Frankly I see nothing different about English that would deem it any different than the other two you mentioned. This obsession to make English the most unique language I find to be the real mystery. Where did IaJ "hit the nail"? If he did manage to prove that English somehow rose out of the ether to mystify everyone I would simply wonder if he has evidence that all other languages do not share the same qualities further back in history.

IaJ said further back in the thread that he would not define what he meant by special/unique/peculiar. This is the only real issue I have with his and your position. How does one rate uniqueness? Does your unique English trump my unique French? If so, why?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by MartinV, posted 01-27-2008 12:58 PM MartinV has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 192 by MartinV, posted 01-28-2008 2:47 PM Vacate has replied
 Message 193 by MartinV, posted 01-28-2008 2:49 PM Vacate has taken no action

  
MartinV 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5063 days)
Posts: 502
From: Slovakia, Bratislava
Joined: 08-28-2006


Message 192 of 205 (451711)
01-28-2008 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by Vacate
01-27-2008 8:15 PM


Re: Uniquest unique?

Could you specify what it is that you think is peculiar? From your post it seems to suggest that you believe English is best for a technological or biological world, German seems best for literature and philosophy, and French for war. I am prepared to accept this position if you are willing to state why one is peculiar from the other two. How would you begin to define this peculiar nature if I was to simply reply by saying war/French is the oddity?

Not exactly. Preliminary crude division of European languages would be this:
English - practical, technical language
French - language of literature
German - philosophy
Russian - religious language

This division is open for discussion. There are other languages like Swedish mentioned by Kuresu. Yet Swedish grammar is more close to English, while German grammar is more complex. I've read that there are some similarities between Chinese and English grammar. Such opinion would be in accordance with IaJ reasoning.

IaJ claimed that modern English has arisen suddenly, by saltus. I would agree with him. As far as I remember the same is valid for German. It was Martin Luther who translated Bible into German and created so norms. I've also read that differences between German vernaculars are greater than differences between Slavonic languages. Somebody can correct me, but Johanes Calvin made the same think for modern French.

As to Schopenhauer explanation I don't know what mordern linguists think about it. Declension in English is almost lost. But as far as I know the same is valid for Spanish and Italian language.

Considering Latin as source of Spanish and Italian language we can really observe that aging of language is connected with it's simplification. There are 6 cases in Latin, 4 cases in German, none in English (or two with genitive?)

The question is what impact has such reduced grammar at thinking of their users. In Latin and Slavonic language there is grammatical coherence between adjectives, verbs and nouns. In English words have their fixed place in the sentences (subj + verb + object etc..). I can imagine my language to be as simple as English regarding cases, eg. without suffixes and prefixes. It would sounds weird but it would be intelligible.


I do not understand. The only connection I can come up with is that you are trying to imply God made English so we could understand The Theory of Evolution correctly.

Then I expressed myself wrong. My opinion is that prevalence of (neo)darwinism is tightly connected with English language. In pre-war Germany there were theories of idealistic morphology and orthogenesis with more than 50 years of tradition and intensive scientific study. This world with all of it's scientific biological journals is forgotten nowadays. My heretical thought was that German was perhaps more apt for study of secrets of evolution than English (as it is in the case of philosophy). English as practical language do not inspire perhaps their users for collateral associations. On the other hands it doesn't block the flow of clear thinking and this is advantage of English in modern world.

Translating 20 pages text from a Slavonic language (and I almost sure from German) into English you obtain let say 16 pages. It would mean English is more concise. There are probably no redundancies. On the other hand you have your mind to be focused what you are listening. Capacity of mind to process syllables or morphems is limited. Japanesse use some "padded" words without meaning just to give a mind some time to process what has been heard. So listening the same think in German/Slavonic language give you more time to rethink it or just to dream - your mind is not so busy as it is in the case of English.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by Vacate, posted 01-27-2008 8:15 PM Vacate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 194 by Vacate, posted 01-28-2008 6:18 PM MartinV has replied

  
MartinV 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5063 days)
Posts: 502
From: Slovakia, Bratislava
Joined: 08-28-2006


Message 193 of 205 (451712)
01-28-2008 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by Vacate
01-27-2008 8:15 PM


Re: Uniquest unique?
-

Edited by MartinV, : the response resent.


This message is a reply to:
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Vacate
Member (Idle past 3835 days)
Posts: 565
Joined: 10-01-2006


Message 194 of 205 (451815)
01-28-2008 6:18 PM
Reply to: Message 192 by MartinV
01-28-2008 2:47 PM


Re: Uniquest unique?
Such opinion would be in accordance with IaJ reasoning.

Perhaps you understand his reasoning better. I always interpreted him as thinking is magical or some such thing.

Given that you say English is similar to Swedish, Chinese, Spanish, and Italian its difficult to figure out why you feel that its peculiar.

IaJ claimed that modern English has arisen suddenly, by saltus. I would agree with him.

What do you mean "modern English"? Do you mean that it appeared suddenly from old English?

My heretical thought was that German was perhaps more apt for study of secrets of evolution than English (as it is in the case of philosophy)

That makes no sense at all. If you are saying that English is the practical and technical language than it is obviously the best choice for the explanation of a scientific theory.

(I am going by your division of languages in an attempt to understand the peculiarness of English)

It would mean English is more concise. There are probably no redundancies. On the other hand you have your mind to be focused what you are listening.

For those reasons and the method you have used to describe the usefullness of various languages it seems very apparent that German would not be a wise choice for scientific literature.

Sorry to drive the discussion away from my original point. I am more interested in understanding the reasons for English being declared unusual, peculiar, or unique when the more I read about your views on languages it appears that English is really quite unoriginal. Is it simply that its a "new" language?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by MartinV, posted 01-28-2008 2:47 PM MartinV has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by MartinV, posted 03-28-2008 3:16 PM Vacate has replied

  
MartinV 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5063 days)
Posts: 502
From: Slovakia, Bratislava
Joined: 08-28-2006


Message 195 of 205 (461914)
03-28-2008 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 194 by Vacate
01-28-2008 6:18 PM


Re: Uniquest unique?
Acording the Czech biologist Komarek Uni Prague there is a difference between German and English language. German language - according his opinion -is more apt to solve the hidden problems of life. German language ability going into the depth of evolution and it's secrets is something outside the scope of English. He compared the German with dynamite - it can also make a great damages.

It is also the problem of German view of orthogenesis vs. anglo-american neodarwinism. After the 2WW the German school of biology connected with fascism has been dismissed. It survives only at by German influenced Uni like Prague, Swiss Unis and St.Peterburg. Anyway the great zoologist and humanist professor Adolf Portmann who dismissed neodarwinism as the head of a Swiss Uni has been replaced by a neodarwinian manager. I presented Portmann views' about descent of testicles at "Biological evolution" thread. But there are also cultural differences between the old German school and anglo-american neodarwinian school regarding "competition" in society.

Anyway the great biologist, multilinguist and philosopher Neubauer Uni Prague who published as 21 years old scientist of biology in the Nature turned out to be a strong critic of neodarwinism nowadays. He support his views by the work of F.Nietzsche.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by Vacate, posted 01-28-2008 6:18 PM Vacate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 196 by Vacate, posted 03-28-2008 9:29 PM MartinV has replied

  
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