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Author Topic:   Simultaneous appearance of written language and common man
Peg
Member (Idle past 3095 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 16 of 86 (492554)
01-01-2009 9:42 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by lyx2no
01-01-2009 9:37 AM


Re: Carbon Dating Check — Status: Pass.
and yet, if it has a date inscribed, you could just look at the date
This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by lyx2no, posted 01-01-2009 9:37 AM lyx2no has responded

Replies to this message:
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lyx2no
Member (Idle past 2882 days)
Posts: 1277
From: A vast, undifferentiated plane.
Joined: 02-28-2008


Message 17 of 86 (492556)
01-01-2009 10:07 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Peg
01-01-2009 9:42 AM


Look! Up in the Sky. It's a Bird. It's a Plane. It's a Rather Simple Point.
If you trust the date in the written record, and the carbon dating agrees with the date in the written record, does that not give cause to trust carbon dating?


Don't do that Dave.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Peg, posted 01-01-2009 9:42 AM Peg has responded

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petrophysics1
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 86 (492558)
01-01-2009 10:19 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Peg
01-01-2009 9:42 AM


Re: Carbon Dating Check — Status: Pass.
Suppose we discovered a new find. A scroll which is purported to have been written by Jesus himself.

Do you have any ideas on how we might try to date that scroll to see if it's the real thing?

It could be a fake from the 13th century, or maybe it dates from 20AD.

What would you do?


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Dr Jack
Member (Idle past 271 days)
Posts: 3507
From: Leicester, England
Joined: 07-14-2003


Message 19 of 86 (492559)
01-01-2009 10:24 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Peg
01-01-2009 9:26 AM


Dates appear on later written records, yes, but they do not appear on the earliest written records. And even where dates do appear, you cannot simply work from the calender to the date in most cases because each calender uses differing fixed points, and we need to date these points in order to accurately calibrate the calender.
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Tanndarr
Member (Idle past 3348 days)
Posts: 68
Joined: 02-14-2008


Message 20 of 86 (492587)
01-01-2009 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Peg
01-01-2009 5:05 AM


Hard archeological evidence
Peg writes...
im basing this is on hard archeological evidence... i'm basing it on the written language which includes the use of symbols and pictures to communicate abstract thought...ie, 'this land was purchased by so and so' OR 'the king has decreed the following set of laws' etc etc etc

I'm not sure if you're trying to make a distinction between hard archeology and the written language or talking about the hard archeology of written language. The study of ancient writings is paleography, which is one part of the topic we're discussing. As for the transition from pictures to symbols that convey abstract thought, my studies show there is no hard line between the two, just a continuous increase in sophisticated drawings. Your position that God created Adam with the ability to write where that ability did not exist does not mesh well with the evidence we see. I'm asking you to explain why we should see what we see instead of caveman drawings suddenly ending at about the same date Noah started his diary.

the earliest known writings are known to come from the Mesopotamia region and the strongest finds have been in Syrian finds such as Babylonia/Assyria dating back around 3,000BCE which places them at the time after the flood.

Yeah, I thought the Flood was about 4,600 years ago..which would make 3,000 BCE pre-flood wouldn't it? If you'd read your link you'd also note we have a pretty convincing progression of Sumerian writings that flow smoothly from a pre-writing tally-based form of record keeping (about 4,000 BCE) through fully developed cuneiform. Looks like we need to move your flood back a while.

this is in tune with the bibles account that people were all situated in this region of the earth before spreading abroad.

Huh? Care to explain the logic behind this statement. We see several writing methods evolve simultaneously at different times in different places from their local proto-writing methods. We do not see their proto-writing stopped to be replaced by a new God given writing system; nor do we see all systems developing from a single master system distributed by the wandering nations after Babel (post flood right? That does push your date up some doesn't it?)...or maybe you do see this somewhere. If so, you haven't pointed it out to me.

What can account for the seemingly 'unrelated' written languages appearing in different places is that, after the languages were confused at Babel (Babylon) then the people spread out and had to develop their own forms of writing for these new languages.

Er...but you said that writing was fully developed before Babel didn't you? Are you telling us that everyone at Babel forgot how to write and after they'd wandered they developed written languages all on their own? Paleographers study not only how to read ancient writings but also the relationship between writing systems. Here's a hint: not all writing systems are unrelated, and many times you'll find different writing systems used with the same language.

As for your links, could you please reference something a little more advanced that actually supports your assertions rather than says the same things I've said all along. I'm asking you to explain exactly what we should see if what you are saying is true and I'm asking you to show a correlation between writing systems and the appearance of modern man...without simply defining modern man as someone who can write.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Peg, posted 01-01-2009 5:05 AM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member
Posts: 19871
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 21 of 86 (492592)
01-01-2009 4:58 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Peg
01-01-2009 5:05 AM


What conclusions how ???
Hey Peg,

im basing this is on hard archeological evidence...

Hard archeological evidence shows the existence of modern Homo sapiens, also known as Cro-Magnons, as early as 36,000 years ago:

quote:
Cro-Magnon ...is one of the main types of Homo sapiens of the European Upper Paleolithic, living approximately 40,000 to 10,000 years ago. It is named after the cave of Crô-Magnon in southwest France, where the first specimen was found.

Click to enlarge

The term falls outside the usual naming conventions for early humans and is used in a general sense to describe the oldest modern people in Europe, though also a specific (but very frequent) subtype among their fossil remains. In recent scientific literature the term "early modern humans" is used instead.
The oldest definitely dated specimen of is from 34,000–36,000 years ago[1].

The geologist Louis Lartet discovered the first five skeletons in March 1868 in the Cro-Magnon rock shelter at Les Eyzies, Dordogne, France. The rock shelter contained a large cavity which protected the fossils. The type specimen from this find is Cro-Magnon 1. The skeletons showed the same high forehead, upright posture and slender (gracile) skeleton as modern humans.


the earliest known writings are known to come from the Mesopotamia region and the strongest finds have been in Syrian finds such as Babylonia/Assyria dating back around 3,000BCE which places them at the time after the flood.

This is at the time of the first city states, while documentation of things by oral history is common for smaller groups of humans. There are also examples of many ways to record events that we may not recognize as language: the knotted strings of the Incas, for example, or the pictographs used by indians on leather as well as stone, pictographs used to record events.

You are mistaking artifacts we can find and understand for the beginning point, when obviously the language did not suddenly appear fully formed in the first document.

this is in tune with the bibles account that people were all situated in this region of the earth before spreading abroad.

Except that it is totally at ODDS with the evidence for the spread of people through africa, the middle east, asia, europe, and even australia ...

quote:
The earliest evidence of human habitation found to date are that of Mungo Man which have been dated at about 40,000 years old, but the time of arrival of the ancestors of indigenous Australians is a matter of debate among researchers, with estimates ranging as high as 125,000 years ago.[3]

... and the americas:

quote:
Scholars who follow the Bering Strait theory agree that most indigenous peoples of the Americas descended from people who probably migrated from Siberia across the Bering Strait, anywhere between 9,000 and 50,000 years ago.

A 2006 study (to be published in Journal of California and Great Basin Anthropology[when?]) reports new DNA-based research that links DNA retrieved from a 10,000-year-old fossilized tooth from an Alaskan island, with specific coastal tribes in Tierra del Fuego, Ecuador, Mexico, and California.[4]


Hard archeological evidence shows that modern humans covered the earth long before the first clay tablets were imprinted in Mesopotamia. Hard archeological evidence also shows that there is no gap in the habitation of these continents, no discontinuity in the various cultures in the areas, as would necessarily be the case if one set were wiped out by a flood and replaced by later migrants from the middle east.

Not one of the native American Indian tribes are genetically descended from the Assyrians that inhabited Mesopotamia at the time the clay tablets were first used to record events, nor are the aboriginals in Australia. Hard genetic evidence refutes the indigenous peoples of these areas being descended from the genetic pool of clay tablet writers. Genetic evidence also shows no gap in the continuous habitation of these areas, no discontinuity in the various lineages of descent in these areas, as would necessarily be the case if one set were wiped out by a flood and replaced by later migrants from the middle east.

See http://partners.nytimes.com/library/national/science/050200sci-genetics-evolution.html
and the map http://partners.nytimes.com/library/national/science/050200sci-genetics-evolution.1.GIF.html
Also http://www.duerinck.com/migrate.html

quote:
The Seven European Daughters of Eve matriarchal groups correspond to Dr. Wallace's lineages above, and were given names by Prof. Sykes:
Helena: This clan lived in the ice-capped Pyrenees. As the climate warmed, Helena’s descendants trekked northward to what is now England, some 12,000 years ago. Members of this group are now present in all European countries.
Jasmine: Her people had a relatively happy life in Syria, where they farmed wheat and raised domestic animals. Jasmine’s descendants traveled throughout Europe, spreading their agricultural innovations with them.
Katrine: Members of this group lived in Venice 10,000 years ago. Today most of Katrine’s clan lives in the Alps.
Tara: Sykes’ maternal ancestry goes back to this group, which settled in Tuscany 17,000 years ago. Descendants ventured across northern Europe and eventually crossed the English Channel.
Ursula: Users of stone tools, Ursula’s clan members drifted across all of Europe.
Valda: Originally from Spain, Valda and her immediate descendants lived 17,000 years ago. Later relatives moved into northern Finland and Norway.
Xenia: Her people lived in the Caucasus Mountains 25,000 years ago. Just before the Ice Age, this clan spread across Europe, and even reached the Americas. (As Dr. Wallace discovered, the X pattern is a rare European lineage and is also among the northern Native Americans such as the Ojibwa and Sioux.)

"Xenia" does not descend from "Jasmine" ... and they are the earliest branch on the mitochrondial tree.

And hard archeological evidence shows that written language did not appear suddenly fully developed "around 3,000BCE which places them at the time after the flood" as one of your links points out:

a few external links you may be interested in.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_writing

quote:
The early writing systems of the late 4th millennium BC are not considered a sudden invention. Rather, they were based on ancient traditions of symbol systems that cannot be classified as writing proper, but have many characteristics strikingly reminiscent of writing. These systems may be described as proto-writing. They used ideographic and/or early mnemonic symbols to convey information yet were probably devoid of direct linguistic content. These systems emerged in the early Neolithic period, as early as the 7th millennium BC.

Which places them well out of your "time of the flood" by 4,000 years.

What can account for the seemingly 'unrelated' written languages appearing in different places is that, after the languages were confused at Babel (Babylon) then the people spread out and had to develop their own forms of writing for these new languages.

So we now have a time for "Babel" then -- before anatomically modern humans emigrated to the far corners of the earth -- and a place: Africa. That would be somewhere between 160kyr and 40kyr ago ... based on hard archeological evidence.

Open minded skepticism looks at all the evidence, not just what is comfortable or convenient for a set of beliefs.

Enjoy.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Peg, posted 01-01-2009 5:05 AM Peg has not yet responded

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 22 of 86 (492631)
01-01-2009 9:54 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Peg
01-01-2009 9:26 AM


An Easy Question
Sure, trust the documents that place a continent the size of Asia and northern Africa betwixt the New World and the Old. :rolleyes:

Here is a question for you:

Based on written records, in which year was built Machu Picchu? The answer's all over the Internet—should be an easy one. :)

Jon


You've been Gremled!
This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Peg, posted 01-01-2009 9:26 AM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Peg, posted 01-02-2009 12:14 AM Jon has responded

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 3095 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 23 of 86 (492642)
01-01-2009 11:32 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by lyx2no
01-01-2009 10:07 AM


Re: Look! Up in the Sky. It's a Bird. It's a Plane. It's a Rather Simple Point.
not if carbon dating is flawed to begin with

there are other methods of dating they can use...type of material, style of writing for example

the writings of historians who may have recorded certain events, they can look at other artifacts collected from the site

how did they date things before carbon dating was invented?


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Peg
Member (Idle past 3095 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 24 of 86 (492643)
01-01-2009 11:43 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by petrophysics1
01-01-2009 10:19 AM


Re: Carbon Dating Check — Status: Pass.
they can scientifically test the material to find out what type of material was used, where it is found and the era that the particular materials were used...they can also cross check with similar materials etc

for example, the shroud of turin was found to be a fake long before it was carbon dated. The new catholic encyclopedia says “There is no evidence of a shroud during the first centuries of the Christian era,” so, if it was around then, there would have been evidence of it among the early christians and those who actually handled the body of christ

they could also compare the writings with other writings to see if they are all in agreement... the writings of 'St Thomas' was checked this way and it was found that the ideas of this supposed gospel was in contradiction to the teachings of Christ and so it was excluded from the biblical cannon.


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Coyote
Member (Idle past 272 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 25 of 86 (492644)
01-01-2009 11:54 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Peg
01-01-2009 11:32 PM


Re: Look! Up in the Sky. It's a Bird. It's a Plane. It's a Rather Simple Point.
how did they date things before carbon dating was invented?

Poorly.

not if carbon dating is flawed to begin with

It is not.

There is a thread that has been dusted off just for you to discuss your problems with C14 dating. Several of us have posted good information there for your perusal. See you there?


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
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Peg
Member (Idle past 3095 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 26 of 86 (492645)
01-01-2009 11:54 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Dr Jack
01-01-2009 10:24 AM


i agree with you there, we would definitely need to know how any such calendars worked

about the dates though, the jews kept the dates of their history meticulously...so meticulously in fact that we know the exact year of the flood, of Adams creation, of the exodus from egypt ect

it stands to reason that if the jews kept dates and worked from a clander, other nations also did this


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Peg
Member (Idle past 3095 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 27 of 86 (492646)
01-01-2009 11:59 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Tanndarr
01-01-2009 3:30 PM


Re: Hard archeological evidence
Tanndarr writes:

We see several writing methods evolve simultaneously at different times in different places from their local proto-writing methods. We do not see their proto-writing stopped to be replaced by a new God given writing system; nor do we see all systems developing from a single master system distributed by the wandering nations after Babel

yes thats right

we do see that because when the languages became confused, each group went off in their own direction and formulated their own writing systems

hence why the sudden appearance of various types and styles of writting.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Peg
Member (Idle past 3095 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 28 of 86 (492649)
01-02-2009 12:14 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Jon
01-01-2009 9:54 PM


Re: An Easy Question
until we understand what Incan written language was, we may never know

but i see what you are saying


This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Jon, posted 01-01-2009 9:54 PM Jon has responded

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PaulK
Member
Posts: 15047
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 29 of 86 (492663)
01-02-2009 1:25 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Peg
01-01-2009 11:54 PM


quote:

about the dates though, the jews kept the dates of their history meticulously...so meticulously in fact that we know the exact year of the flood, of Adams creation, of the exodus from egypt ect

That isn't true. It is possible to use the Bible to work out dates. However we DON'T know if the dates are at all accurate. Not one of those dates can be confirmed from any other source at all, and in fact it is entirely possible that none of the events listed happened at all.


This message is a reply to:
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anglagard
Member
Posts: 2189
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 30 of 86 (492665)
01-02-2009 1:34 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Peg
01-01-2009 11:54 PM


Exact Year
Peg writes:

about the dates though, the jews kept the dates of their history meticulously...so meticulously in fact that we know the exact year of the flood, of Adams creation, of the exodus from egypt ect

Great! Now 'we' can finally know what the exact year of the flood, of Adams creation, and of the Exodus from Egypt as no one seems willing to provide an exact date.

I am going to hold you to this statement, the longer you bob and weave, the worse it will get.


Read not to contradict and confute, not to believe and take for granted, not to find talk and discourse, but to weigh and consider - Francis Bacon

The more we understand particular things, the more we understand God - Spinoza


This message is a reply to:
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