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Author Topic:   future evolution of humanity
compmage
Member (Idle past 4391 days)
Posts: 601
From: South Africa
Joined: 08-04-2005


Message 16 of 34 (45025)
07-04-2003 3:12 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by DC85
07-04-2003 1:14 AM


DC85 writes:

since we pretty much have our needs Covered. It Apears we have no reason to Evolve Very much........ I mean life finds a way around problems but we have most of our Problems covered. I mean we are so well off we don't worry about living from day to day so well we have time to worry about this and other topics on this board. we are so well off we shouldn't change much....... I think

It might be useful to remember that evolution happens because of differential reproductive success. Therefore if one segment of the population, for whatever reason, produces more ofspring than another segment, then their genes will come to dominate.

It is quite obvious that the less a family earns the more children they have (on average), the question then is if there is any gene that they (on average) posses that rich people don't. Those genes, if they exist, are in effect being selected for.

------------------
He hoped and prayed that there wasn't an afterlife. Then he realized there was a contradiction involved here and merely hoped that there wasn't an afterlife.
- Douglas Adams, The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by DC85, posted 07-04-2003 1:14 AM DC85 has taken no action

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Peter, posted 07-04-2003 9:00 AM compmage has replied

  
Peter
Member (Idle past 717 days)
Posts: 2161
From: Cambridgeshire, UK.
Joined: 02-05-2002


Message 17 of 34 (45059)
07-04-2003 9:00 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by compmage
07-04-2003 3:12 AM


Have you ever read the sci-fi short story 'The Marching Morons'
.. can't remember the author unfortunately but it puts forward
an opinion that people of higher intelligence (NOT MY VIEW
ITS JUST A STORY) decided to have only one or two children
quite late in life, while less intelligent people had many children
and started early in life.

The result was that the average intelligence level of the
population dropped off sharply.

Factors along those lines (if linked to heritable features)
could conceivably lead to a change in the allelic frequencies
within human populations ... maybe weaker muscles because we
have machines to do stuff for us ...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by compmage, posted 07-04-2003 3:12 AM compmage has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by compmage, posted 07-04-2003 3:02 PM Peter has replied

  
compmage
Member (Idle past 4391 days)
Posts: 601
From: South Africa
Joined: 08-04-2005


Message 18 of 34 (45091)
07-04-2003 3:02 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Peter
07-04-2003 9:00 AM


Peter writes:

Have you ever read the sci-fi short story 'The Marching Morons'

Never heard of it.

Peter writes:

can't remember the author unfortunately but it puts forward
an opinion that people of higher intelligence (NOT MY VIEW
ITS JUST A STORY) decided to have only one or two children
quite late in life, while less intelligent people had many children
and started early in life.

I'm not sure I would agree with this. There are some fairly intelligent poor people who have many children, while there are some fairly unintelligent rick people who only have a few children.

Peter writes:

Factors along those lines (if linked to heritable features)
could conceivably lead to a change in the allelic frequencies
within human populations ... maybe weaker muscles because we
have machines to do stuff for us ...

I agree, although I don't know if there are any specific gene that is more prevalent among poor people, except possible skin colour, Africa being poorer than the rest of the world, and mostly, well African.

This is countered somewhat by the fact that the infant death rate in Africa is pretty high. How this compares to India and China I don't know.

------------------
He hoped and prayed that there wasn't an afterlife. Then he realized there was a contradiction involved here and merely hoped that there wasn't an afterlife.
- Douglas Adams, The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Peter, posted 07-04-2003 9:00 AM Peter has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Peter, posted 07-07-2003 12:00 PM compmage has replied

  
Autocatalysis
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 34 (45169)
07-05-2003 8:32 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Peter
07-03-2003 9:30 AM


Generally speaking the larger the population the harder/longer it takes to drive genes to fixation. Additionally selection pressure has been lifted off many traits in some parts of the human population. Thus reducing the drive to fixation. On top of this people still live under a huge variety of conditions yet freely interbreed. Speciation is generally accepted to occur in geographic isolated populations. Which is why the whole space thing is interesting! I am sure that new alleles are spreading through the population, but slowly. So there is change, but I am sure that under the current set of conditions humanity won’t change much genetically in the next hundred thousand to a million years, or longer! Just my personal take.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Peter, posted 07-03-2003 9:30 AM Peter has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Peter, posted 07-07-2003 12:04 PM Autocatalysis has replied

  
DC85
Member (Idle past 420 days)
Posts: 876
From: Richmond, Virginia USA
Joined: 05-06-2003


Message 20 of 34 (45175)
07-05-2003 11:36 PM


certain populations could become different.(thats why there are different races evolution was taking place) but I don't think in the Moderen world it will happen as much we are so connected its unthinkable for one Population to Evolve on way and another population to Evolve another if you get what I am saying.....

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Brad McFall, posted 07-05-2003 11:44 PM DC85 has replied

  
Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 4271 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 21 of 34 (45177)
07-05-2003 11:44 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by DC85
07-05-2003 11:36 PM


DC- why didnt you think of solar system exploration as de facto creating restricted human gene flow? I have never seen a calculation on the cost of biomass movement vs migration under reproduction but such approximations to more than 100yrs in the future would not be out of leisure time at some time in this life time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by DC85, posted 07-05-2003 11:36 PM DC85 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by DC85, posted 07-06-2003 12:11 AM Brad McFall has replied

  
DC85
Member (Idle past 420 days)
Posts: 876
From: Richmond, Virginia USA
Joined: 05-06-2003


Message 22 of 34 (45184)
07-06-2003 12:11 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Brad McFall
07-05-2003 11:44 PM


interesting...... but Unlees they are completly cut off from other genes I still say the answer is the same. I mean more race Differences may Occur but not where the species changes I don't think.....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Brad McFall, posted 07-05-2003 11:44 PM Brad McFall has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Brad McFall, posted 07-06-2003 12:14 AM DC85 has taken no action

  
Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 4271 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 23 of 34 (45185)
07-06-2003 12:14 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by DC85
07-06-2003 12:11 AM


fine
Ok but now we would be discussing population genetics on a level that even the historians of the subject doubt is possible. Will Provine IS mistaken in this regard I know from LOOKING (not interpreting data) d if ferently at fish than I did at herps even though I tried for over a month to attempt the same perspective. (also- Gould's refusal to accredit Croizat is part of this paceled parsed use of language that Gould attempted to triangulate).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by DC85, posted 07-06-2003 12:11 AM DC85 has taken no action

  
DC85
Member (Idle past 420 days)
Posts: 876
From: Richmond, Virginia USA
Joined: 05-06-2003


Message 24 of 34 (45212)
07-06-2003 11:22 AM


even if People are across a great distance .... if they got there they are not completly cut off from other populations.....

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Brad McFall, posted 07-06-2003 10:15 PM DC85 has taken no action

  
Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 4271 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 25 of 34 (45248)
07-06-2003 10:15 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by DC85
07-06-2003 11:22 AM


gene flow takes TIME, spacetravel takes up this
Reproduction however requires proximity as even artifical insemination would be thusly affected. I have not made the computation/calculation I indicated. Back to you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by DC85, posted 07-06-2003 11:22 AM DC85 has taken no action

  
DC85
Member (Idle past 420 days)
Posts: 876
From: Richmond, Virginia USA
Joined: 05-06-2003


Message 26 of 34 (45250)
07-07-2003 12:21 AM


I still say if the Modern world keeps up its impossible for some people to Evolve one way and others another.......one group is connected to the other. and the same would go no matter where we are.... it will be hard to cut people off from each other. and with modern Medicine Mutations don't really matter all have and equal chance to survive. so no one Mutation will be favored so. Evolution will go VERY slow if it happens at all. Get what I am saying?

(also I will be away for a few days answer I will try to catch up when I get back I will be on for a couple more hours though)

[This message has been edited by DC85, 07-06-2003]


  
Peter
Member (Idle past 717 days)
Posts: 2161
From: Cambridgeshire, UK.
Joined: 02-05-2002


Message 27 of 34 (45291)
07-07-2003 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by compmage
07-04-2003 3:02 PM


... but I didn't mention poor people at all!!!!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by compmage, posted 07-04-2003 3:02 PM compmage has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by compmage, posted 07-09-2003 3:35 AM Peter has replied

  
Peter
Member (Idle past 717 days)
Posts: 2161
From: Cambridgeshire, UK.
Joined: 02-05-2002


Message 28 of 34 (45293)
07-07-2003 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Autocatalysis
07-05-2003 8:32 PM


Hard to say without detailed future knowledge of the
earth's environment.

More UV could drive noticeable change, similarly any
global climatic change could provide a selective
pressure amongst the developing world which doesn't exist
in the developed world (a brave new world of isolation).


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Autocatalysis, posted 07-05-2003 8:32 PM Autocatalysis has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Autocatalysis, posted 07-09-2003 1:24 AM Peter has replied

  
Autocatalysis
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 34 (45466)
07-09-2003 1:24 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Peter
07-07-2003 12:04 PM


I am confident to say that the general consensus in this thread concludes that there is insufficient reproductive isolation in the human population to drive speciation, now and in the foreseeable future. The question remains what selection pressure is there? And what direction are we being driven in. I think it might be advantageous here to make a distinction between artificial selection and natural selection, if at all possible. Specifically, humans have had their evolution shaped by cultural adaptations (artificial selection?). Our ability to speak is an example of a learnt behaviour effecting selection. There are examples of cultural evolution in other animals, mostly primates, but others as well. And what could be more cultural than religion? It was my hope to encourage some YEC into this discussion. But after 29 posts it seems there is no interest from such quarters.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Peter, posted 07-07-2003 12:04 PM Peter has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Peter, posted 07-09-2003 4:53 AM Autocatalysis has replied

  
compmage
Member (Idle past 4391 days)
Posts: 601
From: South Africa
Joined: 08-04-2005


Message 30 of 34 (45474)
07-09-2003 3:35 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Peter
07-07-2003 12:00 PM


Peter writes:

... but I didn't mention poor people at all!!!!

I did mention that I had never heard of it. I was taking what you had written in context with what we were speaking about...that being that poor people tend to reporduce more.

------------------
He hoped and prayed that there wasn't an afterlife. Then he realized there was a contradiction involved here and merely hoped that there wasn't an afterlife.
- Douglas Adams, The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Peter, posted 07-07-2003 12:00 PM Peter has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Peter, posted 07-09-2003 4:48 AM compmage has taken no action

  
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