Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 65 (9073 total)
84 online now:
AZPaul3, Dredge, Phat, Tanypteryx (4 members, 80 visitors)
Newest Member: MidwestPaul
Post Volume: Total: 893,274 Year: 4,386/6,534 Month: 600/900 Week: 124/182 Day: 4/27 Hour: 1/3

Announcements: Security Update Released


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Neanderthals and Cro-Magnon
lmilko
Junior Member (Idle past 5518 days)
Posts: 1
From: Erdevik, Serbia
Joined: 01-17-2007


Message 61 of 87 (377508)
01-17-2007 8:32 AM


no spam. Welcome to EvC, but please refrain from spamming.

Edited by AdminPhat, : spam removed


Milko Leporis
-----------------------------------
<a href="http://creationthetruth.atspace.com">Creation The Truth</a>

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by RAZD, posted 01-17-2007 9:10 AM lmilko has taken no action

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 643 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 62 of 87 (377514)
01-17-2007 9:10 AM
Reply to: Message 61 by lmilko
01-17-2007 8:32 AM


welcome, but ...
Welcome to the fray lmilko

I suggest you read forum guidelines -- bare links are frowned on, as are blatant promotions of personal websites. This is also a {science} thread and you are expected to substantiate any claims with evidence.

I glanced at your website and notice that it is full of the usual creatortionista pratts (points refuted a thousand times) that you have either naively, gullibly, ignorantly or maliciously copied from other sources without verifying their validity.

This means you are not posting the THRUTH in spite of any claim to do so.

If you care to substantiate any one of those claims I suggest you start a new thread and post what you think is the MOST credible one and back it up with evidence.

Go to Forum Proposed New Topics to start a new thread. Your choice.

Enjoy.


Join the effort to unravel AIDS/HIV, unfold Proteomes, fight Cancer,
compare Fiocruz Genome and fight Muscular Dystrophy with Team EvC! (click)


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by lmilko, posted 01-17-2007 8:32 AM lmilko has taken no action

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by AdminPhat, posted 01-17-2007 9:30 AM RAZD has taken no action

  
AdminPhat
Inactive Member


Message 63 of 87 (377516)
01-17-2007 9:30 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by RAZD
01-17-2007 9:10 AM


Re: welcome, but ...
RAZD, you would make a great administrator! :D



GOT QUESTIONS? You may click these links for some feedback:
  • General discussion of moderation procedures
  • Thread Reopen Requests
  • Considerations of topic promotions from the "Proposed New Topics" forum
  • Forum Guidelines
    ***************************************
    New Members: to get an understanding of what makes great posts, check out:
  • "Post of the Month" Forum
    "DO UNTO OTHERS AS YOU WOULD HAVE THEM DO UNTO YOU"
    AdminPhat


  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 62 by RAZD, posted 01-17-2007 9:10 AM RAZD has taken no action

      
    Volunteer
    Junior Member (Idle past 5147 days)
    Posts: 21
    From: Tennessee
    Joined: 12-16-2007


    Message 64 of 87 (441853)
    12-19-2007 12:07 AM
    Reply to: Message 1 by Mammuthus
    05-16-2003 8:56 AM


    What is the purpose of this discussion?
    In 1856 Thomas H. Huxley (ardent evolutionist and defender of Darwin) said Neanderthal bones belonged to people and did not prove evolution. Rudolph Virchow, a German anatomist, said the bones were those of modern men afflicted with rickets and arthritis. ("Neanderthals had Rickets" Science Digest, February 1971,p.35)

    Cro-Magnons were truly human, possibly of noble bearing. Some were over six feet tall, with a cranial volume somewhat larger than that of men today. This means they had more brains than men have today. Not only did they have some excellent artists among them, but they also kept astronomy records. The Cro-Magnons were normal people,not monkeys; and they provide no evidence of transition from ape to man.


    "Faith is: the substance of fossils hoped for,the evidence of links unseen."

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by Mammuthus, posted 05-16-2003 8:56 AM Mammuthus has taken no action

    Replies to this message:
     Message 65 by DrJones*, posted 12-19-2007 1:28 AM Volunteer has taken no action
     Message 66 by dwise1, posted 12-19-2007 1:46 AM Volunteer has replied

      
    DrJones*
    Member
    Posts: 2209
    From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
    Joined: 08-19-2004
    Member Rating: 4.4


    Message 65 of 87 (441855)
    12-19-2007 1:28 AM
    Reply to: Message 64 by Volunteer
    12-19-2007 12:07 AM


    Re: What is the purpose of this discussion?
    In 1856 Thomas H. Huxley (ardent evolutionist and defender of Darwin) said Neanderthal bones belonged to people and did not prove evolution

    and you think we haven't learned anything new in the 151 years since?

    Rudolph Virchow, a German anatomist, said the bones were those of modern men afflicted with rickets and arthritis. ("Neanderthals had Rickets" Science Digest, February 1971,p.35)

    And you think we haven't learned anything new in the 36 years since?

    The Cro-Magnons were normal people,not monkeys; and they provide no evidence of transition from ape to man.

    Men, that is Homo sapiens, are apes.


    Live every week like it's Shark Week!
    Just a monkey in a long line of kings.
    If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist!
    *not an actual doctor

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 64 by Volunteer, posted 12-19-2007 12:07 AM Volunteer has taken no action

    Replies to this message:
     Message 67 by dwise1, posted 12-19-2007 1:52 AM DrJones* has taken no action

      
    dwise1
    Member
    Posts: 5075
    Joined: 05-02-2006
    Member Rating: 2.7


    Message 66 of 87 (441857)
    12-19-2007 1:46 AM
    Reply to: Message 64 by Volunteer
    12-19-2007 12:07 AM


    Re: What is the purpose of this discussion?
    The Cro-Magnons were normal people,not monkeys; and they provide no evidence of transition from ape to man.

    With all due respect, that is one of the most ridiculous proclamations I have even seen.

    Show me where any scientist has ever said that Cro-Magnons were "monkeys". Show me! Show me where any scientist has ever said that Cro-Magnons were evidence of ape-to-man transition. Show me!

    Only creationists would make the ridiculous claim that any scientist would make such a claim. Just as creationists have tried to claim that scientists think that the ancient Egyptians (the ones who built the pyramids) were "ape-men". Complete and utter bullshit!

    What kind of trough have you been feeding from? You really need to consider radically altering your brain's diet.

    Rudolph Virchow, a German anatomist, said the bones were those of modern men afflicted with rickets and arthritis.

    Do you have any idea at all who Virchow was? More importantly, when he was? His Wikipedia article is at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virchow. The guy was pure 19th century! Did you know that? If not, then why not? Here's the skinny on him and Neanderthal ("Creationist Arguments: Neandertals" at http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/a_neands.html -- do some reading and start to learn):

    quote:
    In the 1800's the famous pathologist Rudolf Virchow was one who claimed that the first Neandertal fossil found was of a rickets sufferer. As Trinkaus and Shipman (1992) point out, Virchow, an expert on rickets, should have been the first to realize how ridiculous this diagnosis was. People with rickets are undernourished and calcium-poor, and their bones are so weak that even the weight of the body can cause them to bend. The bones of the first Neandertal, by contrast, were about 50% thicker than those of the average modern human, and clearly belonged to an extraordinarily athletic and muscular individual.

    Lubenow (1992), relying on the authority of Virchow and Ivanhoe (1970), claims that Neandertals (and H. erectus and the archaic sapiens) were caused by a post-Flood ice age: heavy cloud cover, the need to shelter and wear heavy clothes, and a lack of vitamin D sources, would all have combined to cause severe rickets.

    This explanation fails for many reasons:
    - Rickets does not produce a Neandertal, or Homo erectus morphology; it is clear from many sources (Reader 1981; Tattersall 1995) that the original Neandertal skeleton was unlike any previously known, even in a century in which rickets was a common disease.
    - Evidence of rickets is easily detectable, especially on the growing ends of the long bones of the body. Radiology courses routinely teach the symptoms. It has never (so far as I know) been detected in Neandertals or Homo erectus.
    - Even Virchow did not claim rickets as a sole cause. Virchow in 1872 decided that the first Neandertal Man fossil had had rickets in childhood, head injuries in middle age, and chronic arthritis in old age. A whole population of such people strains credibility, to say the least, although Lubenow says that this diagnosis "is as valid today as when [Virchow] first made it".
    - The long bones of Neandertals, like those of rickets victims, are often more curved than normal, but rickets causes a sideways curvature of the femur, while Neandertal femurs curve backwards (Klein 1989).
    - Humans could hardly have stayed in shelter all the time; food gathering would have required them to spend a lot of time outside (and probably a lot more time than most modern urban humans).
    - The most extreme differences from modern humans (H. erectus) are mostly found in regions such as Africa and Java, which were always tropical; the reverse of what would be predicted by Lubenow's hypothesis.
    - Creationists usually claim that most of the fossil record was laid down by the Noahaic Flood. And yet there are hundreds of fossils of "post-Flood" humans, who supposedly lived in a period of low population and little fossilization. Why, underneath these post-Flood humans, do we not find far larger numbers of fossilized pre-Flood humans?



    Please note that Virchow had examined the first Neanderthal fossils in 1872 (duh?), which were (relying on my memory now) those of an old arthritic individual. Since then, we have found fossils of over a hundred individuals of all ages. The claim that Neanderthal features are the result of rickets completely ignores the evidence and is just plain ignorant.

    There is a cure for ignorance. It's called "learning". Ever hear of it?


    The then-Governor of Mississippi explaining why he was campaigning so hard for education reform in his state:

    quote:
    We've already tried ignorance, so we know that it doesn't work!
    (Quoted from memory from an NPR radio newscast circa 1990, give or take half a decade)


    OBTW, we do indeed have the ape-to-man transition. Handed to us by the creationists!

    We have transitions from Homo erectus and Homo Neanderthalensis (or Homo sapiens neandertalensis, depending on where you stand on that controversy -- yes, science does indeed have controversies, but real ones, not the fake and fraudulant ones that creationists hawk). Creationist claim that Home erectus was "100% ape" while Neanderthal was "100% modern man". With these transitions from H. erectus to H. Neanderthalensis, we do indeed have the ape-to-human transition.

    Thank you for your support, even though it was unintentional.

    Edited by dwise1, : OBTW


    {When you search for God, y}ou can't go to the people who believe already. They've made up their minds and want to convince you of their own personal heresy.
    ("The Jehovah Contract", AKA "Der Jehova-Vertrag", by Viktor Koman, 1984)

    Humans wrote the Bible; God wrote the world.
    (from filk song "Word of God" by Dr. Catherine Faber, http://www.echoschildren.org/CDlyrics/WORDGOD.HTML)

    Of course, if Dr. Mortimer's surmise should be correct and we are dealing with forces outside the ordinary laws of Nature, there is an end of our investigation. But we are bound to exhaust all other hypotheses before falling back upon this one.
    (Sherlock Holmes in The Hound of the Baskervilles)

    Gentry's case depends upon his halos remaining a mystery. Once a naturalistic explanation is discovered, his claim of a supernatural origin is washed up. So he will not give aid or support to suggestions that might resolve the mystery. Science works toward an increase in knowledge; creationism depends upon a lack of it. Science promotes the open-ended search; creationism supports giving up and looking no further. It is clear which method Gentry advocates.
    ("Gentry's Tiny Mystery -- Unsupported by Geology" by J. Richard Wakefield, Creation/Evolution Issue XXII, Winter 1987-1988, pp 31-32)


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 64 by Volunteer, posted 12-19-2007 12:07 AM Volunteer has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 68 by Adminnemooseus, posted 12-19-2007 2:39 AM dwise1 has taken no action
     Message 69 by Volunteer, posted 12-20-2007 7:03 AM dwise1 has replied
     Message 70 by Volunteer, posted 12-20-2007 7:08 AM dwise1 has taken no action

      
    dwise1
    Member
    Posts: 5075
    Joined: 05-02-2006
    Member Rating: 2.7


    Message 67 of 87 (441858)
    12-19-2007 1:52 AM
    Reply to: Message 65 by DrJones*
    12-19-2007 1:28 AM


    Re: What is the purpose of this discussion?
    DrJones writes:

    Volunteer writes:

    Rudolph Virchow, a German anatomist, said the bones were those of modern men afflicted with rickets and arthritis. ("Neanderthals had Rickets" Science Digest, February 1971,p.35)


    And you think we haven't learned anything new in the 36 years since?

    Uh, the Virchow indirect quote was made in 1872, which was one hundred thirty-five (135) years ago. Not far off from the Huxley quote.

    The real question is what that article actually said. Did it try to claim, as the creationist do, that rickets were the cause of Neanderthal features? Or did it merely show that the disease also existed way back then?

    Has anyone researched that article? More importantly, did Volunteer ever think to check it out? Yeah, I doubt that too.


    {When you search for God, y}ou can't go to the people who believe already. They've made up their minds and want to convince you of their own personal heresy.
    ("The Jehovah Contract", AKA "Der Jehova-Vertrag", by Viktor Koman, 1984)

    Humans wrote the Bible; God wrote the world.
    (from filk song "Word of God" by Dr. Catherine Faber, http://www.echoschildren.org/CDlyrics/WORDGOD.HTML)

    Of course, if Dr. Mortimer's surmise should be correct and we are dealing with forces outside the ordinary laws of Nature, there is an end of our investigation. But we are bound to exhaust all other hypotheses before falling back upon this one.
    (Sherlock Holmes in The Hound of the Baskervilles)

    Gentry's case depends upon his halos remaining a mystery. Once a naturalistic explanation is discovered, his claim of a supernatural origin is washed up. So he will not give aid or support to suggestions that might resolve the mystery. Science works toward an increase in knowledge; creationism depends upon a lack of it. Science promotes the open-ended search; creationism supports giving up and looking no further. It is clear which method Gentry advocates.
    ("Gentry's Tiny Mystery -- Unsupported by Geology" by J. Richard Wakefield, Creation/Evolution Issue XXII, Winter 1987-1988, pp 31-32)


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 65 by DrJones*, posted 12-19-2007 1:28 AM DrJones* has taken no action

      
    Adminnemooseus
    Administrator
    Posts: 3959
    Joined: 09-26-2002
    Member Rating: 5.8


    Message 68 of 87 (441860)
    12-19-2007 2:39 AM
    Reply to: Message 66 by dwise1
    12-19-2007 1:46 AM


    Shall we shoot for a little friendlier tone?
    Content wise, a pretty nice job. Oozing with a bit too much crankiness though. Be nice, you do want the creationists around don't you? Besides, crankiness tends to beget more crankiness.

    You are welcome, indeed encouraged. to reply to this message. BUT if you do, do it at the "General discussion..." topic, link below.

    Adminnemooseus


    New Members should start HERE to get an understanding of what makes great posts.

    Comments on moderation procedures (or wish to respond to admin messages)? - Go to:
    General discussion of moderation procedures
    Thread Reopen Requests
    Considerations of topic promotions from the "Proposed New Topics" forum

    Other useful links:

    Forum Guidelines, Style Guides for EvC, Assistance w/ Forum Formatting, Proposed New (Great Debate) Topics, Official Invitations to Online Chat@EvC

    Admin writes:

    It really helps moderators figure out if a topic is disintegrating because of general misbehavior versus someone in particular if the originally non-misbehaving members kept it that way. When everyone is prickly and argumentative and off-topic and personal then it's just too difficult to tell. We have neither infinite time to untie the Gordian knot, nor the wisdom of Solomon.

    There used to be a comedian who presented his ideas for a better world, and one of them was to arm everyone on the highway with little rubber dart guns. Every time you see a driver doing something stupid, you fire a little dart at his car. When a state trooper sees someone driving down the highway with a bunch of darts all over his car he pulls him over for being an idiot.

    Please make it easy to tell you apart from the idiots. Source


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 66 by dwise1, posted 12-19-2007 1:46 AM dwise1 has taken no action

      
    Volunteer
    Junior Member (Idle past 5147 days)
    Posts: 21
    From: Tennessee
    Joined: 12-16-2007


    Message 69 of 87 (442105)
    12-20-2007 7:03 AM
    Reply to: Message 66 by dwise1
    12-19-2007 1:46 AM


    Re: What is the purpose of this discussion?
    I'm sure that I'm not as well read as you "intelectual" evolutionist but I have read enough to compare you with the Southern Baptist here in Tennessee. They always find some way to explain away the parts of the Bible that don't fit into their belief system. And now I read about this open system trying to explain away the Second Law of Thermodynamics in spit of what Einstein and all the physicists say!
    Way to go intelectual boy you are in good company.


    "Faith is: the substance of fossils hoped for,the evidence of links unseen."

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 66 by dwise1, posted 12-19-2007 1:46 AM dwise1 has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 71 by Lithodid-Man, posted 12-20-2007 7:19 AM Volunteer has replied
     Message 77 by dwise1, posted 12-20-2007 12:09 PM Volunteer has taken no action

      
    Volunteer
    Junior Member (Idle past 5147 days)
    Posts: 21
    From: Tennessee
    Joined: 12-16-2007


    Message 70 of 87 (442106)
    12-20-2007 7:08 AM
    Reply to: Message 66 by dwise1
    12-19-2007 1:46 AM


    Edited by Volunteer, : I posted the message twice.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 66 by dwise1, posted 12-19-2007 1:46 AM dwise1 has taken no action

    Replies to this message:
     Message 72 by Percy, posted 12-20-2007 7:42 AM Volunteer has taken no action

      
    Lithodid-Man
    Member (Idle past 2169 days)
    Posts: 504
    From: Juneau, Alaska, USA
    Joined: 03-22-2004


    Message 71 of 87 (442108)
    12-20-2007 7:19 AM
    Reply to: Message 69 by Volunteer
    12-20-2007 7:03 AM


    Re: What is the purpose of this discussion?
    Please tell me that you are a brilliant parody of a fundie, I have to believe it. I love it! The misspelling of "intellectual" was a giveaway. And the bit about Einstein's spit, golden.


    "I have seen so far because I have stood on the bloated corpses of my competitors" - Dr Burgess Bowder

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 69 by Volunteer, posted 12-20-2007 7:03 AM Volunteer has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 73 by Volunteer, posted 12-20-2007 8:10 AM Lithodid-Man has taken no action

      
    Percy
    Member
    Posts: 20761
    From: New Hampshire
    Joined: 12-23-2000
    Member Rating: 2.1


    Message 72 of 87 (442112)
    12-20-2007 7:42 AM
    Reply to: Message 70 by Volunteer
    12-20-2007 7:08 AM


    Re: What is the purpose of this discussion?
    Hi Volunteer,

    I think Dwise1 was just trying to indicate that much of your Message 64 contained false information. For example:

    Volunteer in Message 64 writes:

    In 1856 Thomas H. Huxley (ardent evolutionist and defender of Darwin) said Neanderthal bones belonged to people and did not prove evolution.

    Darwin didn't publish Origin of Species until 1859, so Huxley is very unlikely to have expressed sentiments like this in 1856, or ever, for that matter.

    Rudolph Virchow, a German anatomist, said the bones were those of modern men afflicted with rickets and arthritis. ("Neanderthals had Rickets" Science Digest, February 1971,p.35)

    Since Virchow died in 1902, he is unlikely to have written an article in Science Digest in 1971, 69 years after his death. Dwise1 provides you the correct information when he tells you that Virchow rendered his opinion on the first Neanderthal fossil, not to claim that the differences from modern humans were the result of rickets, but just that this Neanderthal individual might have had rickets in childhood. Virchow was a leading rickets expert of the day. The many, many Neanderthal fossils discovered and examined since that time over 140 years ago clearly indicate that the Neanderthals were a separate and unique species, and modern DNA analyses (which Mammuthus mentioned in Message 1) have confirmed this view.

    Cro-Magnons were truly human...

    Yes, of course, they were Homo sapiens, and while not exactly like us very, very similar. What in the world led you to conclude that Mammuthus was saying anything else? Here's a quote from the passage Mammuthus cited in Message 1:

    Mammuthus quoting an article in Message 1 writes:

    Following the most stringent current standards for validation of ancient DNA sequences, we typed the mtDNA hypervariable region I of two anatomically modern Homo sapiens sapiens individuals of the Cro-Magnon type dated at about 23 and 25 thousand years ago. Here we show that the mtDNAs of these individuals fall well within the range of variation of today's humans...

    Given that Mammuthus was citing an article pointing out how similar Cro-Magnon man was to modern man, even calling them "anatomically modern Homo sapiens sapiens", why in the world would you write a rebuttal as if it had said the opposite?

    --Percy


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 70 by Volunteer, posted 12-20-2007 7:08 AM Volunteer has taken no action

    Replies to this message:
     Message 74 by Grashnak, posted 12-20-2007 8:12 AM Percy has taken no action

      
    Volunteer
    Junior Member (Idle past 5147 days)
    Posts: 21
    From: Tennessee
    Joined: 12-16-2007


    Message 73 of 87 (442116)
    12-20-2007 8:10 AM
    Reply to: Message 71 by Lithodid-Man
    12-20-2007 7:19 AM


    Re: What is the purpose of this discussion?
    Did I not just bow to your intellect? And thank GOD that University research has discovered that there is no correlation between spelling and intellect because I am the worlds worst speller. However, You just won me five bucks from a good friend of mine.
    I bet him that instead of answering that you would ridicule. That's a favorite tactic of most evolutionist. You have read the open system argument haven't you? Maybe you don't believe it either.The big difference with the Southern Baptists is they don't ridicule, they just sentence you to Hell when you disagree with their beliefs.

    With this, I will bow to the administrator, things are getting too personal. You can have the last word, I am obviously in the wrong forum.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 71 by Lithodid-Man, posted 12-20-2007 7:19 AM Lithodid-Man has taken no action

    Replies to this message:
     Message 75 by ringo, posted 12-20-2007 10:22 AM Volunteer has taken no action
     Message 76 by Percy, posted 12-20-2007 10:24 AM Volunteer has replied
     Message 78 by bluescat48, posted 12-20-2007 6:44 PM Volunteer has taken no action

      
    Grashnak
    Junior Member (Idle past 5181 days)
    Posts: 5
    From: Finland
    Joined: 12-19-2007


    Message 74 of 87 (442117)
    12-20-2007 8:12 AM
    Reply to: Message 72 by Percy
    12-20-2007 7:42 AM


    Re: What is the purpose of this discussion?
    It is pretty weird that Neanderthals brain was litte bit bigger than the modern humans brain. :)
    Well I dont know did they have larger brain, but the skull capacity was 10 % bigger.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 72 by Percy, posted 12-20-2007 7:42 AM Percy has taken no action

      
    ringo
    Member
    Posts: 19530
    From: frozen wasteland
    Joined: 03-23-2005
    Member Rating: 2.8


    Message 75 of 87 (442144)
    12-20-2007 10:22 AM
    Reply to: Message 73 by Volunteer
    12-20-2007 8:10 AM


    Re: What is the purpose of this discussion?
    Volunteer writes:

    I bet him that instead of answering that you would ridicule. That's a favorite tactic of most evolutionist.

    And a favorite tactic of creationists is veering off-topic - i.e. Neanderthals and Cro-Magnon - when they are rebutted.

    You can feel free to answer the rebuttals and you can feel free to take your misunderstanding of thermodynamics to any one of the vast number of appropriate threads.

    By the way, you're not even in the Top 100 worst spellers on this site. :)


    Disclaimer: The above statement is without a doubt, the most LUDICROUS, IDIOTIC AND PERFECT EXAMPLE OF WILLFUL STUPIDITY, THAT I HAVE EVER SEEN OR HEARD.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 73 by Volunteer, posted 12-20-2007 8:10 AM Volunteer has taken no action

      
    Newer Topic | Older Topic
    Jump to:


    Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

    ™ Version 4.1
    Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2022