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Author Topic:   Human Evolution (re: If evolved from apes, why still apes?)
RAZD
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Message 22 of 128 (448676)
01-14-2008 7:31 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by MikeMcC
01-14-2008 7:07 PM


Welcome to the fray MikeMcC.

I think a very solid proof that we have evolved from a common ancestor will arive the day we realise that not all "humans" can interbreed. We will certainly, eventually, evolve enough that people, for argument's sake, on far sides of the planet to one another could not possibly reproduce, by natural methods anyway, and thus be considered different species.

You need to consider gene flow rather than individual mating. With the increasing globalization, I think it is less likely for people to become genetically isolated than in the past.

Probably the biggest test of human breeding was the european discovery of america and the indigenous population here.

Isolation doesn't always lead to genetic incompatibility, even after many generations - without any selection pressure for the basic phenotype to change all that you have is random mutation and genetic drift.

Enjoy.

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This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by MikeMcC, posted 01-14-2008 7:46 PM RAZD has responded

  
RAZD
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Posts: 20539
From: the other end of the sidewalk
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Message 25 of 128 (448702)
01-14-2008 9:01 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by MikeMcC
01-14-2008 7:46 PM


I considered using the extreme example of someone who currently lives in a western, cosmopolitan part of the world, trying to have a child with someone who was brought up in a jungle tribe somewhere and whose previous generations have all come from the same setting.

But they mate with people from the next village who mate with people from the next village ...

Think of it as a series of circular areas where each "village" mates with someone in their circle, but the circles overlap with the circles of several other "villages" etc etc until the earth is covered. Genes flow across the overlap areas. Generation by generation they spread further. The gene doesn't need the european to mate with the amazon to move to the far side of the earth.

Enjoy.


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This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
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Posts: 20539
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
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Message 37 of 128 (449152)
01-16-2008 9:28 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Elmer
01-16-2008 5:07 PM


Re: Natural Selection and Biodiversity - An Example
Sorry, wrote a long post in reply, accidentally touched the wrong key, and lost it in the ether. Happens to me on a regular basis.

Sucks. Sometimes you can go back ← to recover posts.

Whenever a post gets bigger that the little white box provided I usually copy it over into either wordpad or my open source writer program (which has spell-check, auto-save and other useful features). This makes it hard to lose posts.

Enjoy.


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This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
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Message 68 of 128 (455546)
02-12-2008 8:03 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by bluegenes
02-01-2008 10:18 PM


Dolphins
Tool making isn't everything. Maybe they philosophise. How do we know otherwise?

http://www.earthtrust.org/delrings.html

quote:
The young dolphin gives a quick flip of her head, and an undulating silver ring appears--as if by magic--in front of her. The ring is a solid, toroidal bubble two feet across--and yet it does not rise to the surface! It stands erect in the water like the rim of a magic mirror, or the doorway to an unseen dimension. For long seconds the dolphin regards its creation, from varying aspects and angles, with its vision and sonar. Seemingly making a judgement, the dolphin then quickly pulls a small silver donut from the larger structure, which collapses into small bubbles. She then "pushes" the donut, which stays just inches ahead of her rostrum, perhaps 20 feet over a period of up to 10 seconds. Then, stopping again, she regards the twisting ring for a last time and bites it--causing it to collapse into a thousand tiny bubbles which head--as they should--for the water's surface. After a few moments of reflection, she creates another.

Can you do that?

Enjoy.


we are limited in our ability to understand
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RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
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This message is a reply to:
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 Message 70 by bluegenes, posted 02-12-2008 8:31 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
RAZD
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Posts: 20539
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 89 of 128 (523254)
09-09-2009 7:34 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by djwray
09-08-2009 9:58 PM


Re: Why still apes
welcome to the fray, djwray,

My opinion is that humans didn't evolve from apes.

Unfortunately for you, your opinion has absolutely no effect on reality.

Instead they evolved from Homo Erectus (and probably Neanderthals), which in turn evolved from another, probably Homo Habilis.

Both H. erectus and H. neanderthals are considered cousin branches of the hominid tree.

http://anthropology.si.edu/humanorigins/ha/a_tree.html


Click to enlarge

Humans and apes are so diverse that humans couldn't evolve from them.

Can you show the diversity line that clearly divides these skulls?

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/hominids.html


Click to enlarge

I also believe that members of the Homo Erectus species gave birth to humans.

Curiously, what you believe is irrelevant to reality, and may interfere with your learning new knowldege.

Enjoy.

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we are limited in our ability to understand
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Rebel American Zen Deist
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by djwray, posted 09-08-2009 9:58 PM djwray has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by valentin.d, posted 09-20-2009 7:14 PM RAZD has responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 20539
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
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Message 94 of 128 (523522)
09-10-2009 9:28 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by djwray
09-09-2009 10:24 PM


cognitive dissonance?
Hi again djwray, just a point of perspective:

According to some responses people must believe that I have misinterpreted the meaning of the topic. I thought (and still think) it was asking why apes still exist based on an assumption that apes evolved into humans. I was questioning the validity of that assumption. "I believe" that they are too genetically diverse. For those who are having trouble understanding, an analogy would be that "I believe" that a giraffe can't evolve into an elephant.

Yet in Message 21 you say:

... the lack of evidence (gaps) reveal that there has been an additional influence and that is immigration to Earth, ...

In other words you think chimps, Pan troglodytes, and humans, Homo sapiens are "too genetically diverse," but that aliens can breed with humans?

... which also happens to explain population growth. ...

Curiously, population growth is already explained, and no additional mechanism is needed, simply because the potential unimpeded natural growth rate far exceeds the actual observed rates of growth that have been observed.

As I have found in some other forums there is, unfortunately, a stigma attached to those who are assigned the misleading classification of "Junior member". It can bring out an unfortunate, primitive behavior pattern in others known as territorialism.

Ah, the "poor victim" card.

You will cease to be a "junior member" when you have posted a set number of posts. In that time, presumably, you will have learned the basic protocols of this (or any similar) forum. This includes substantiating your argument with evidence, addressing and answering the issues raised by others as they critique your argument/s.

As you might know there is a lot of debate out there and there are a lot of personal opinions, even among those at the forefront of investigation.

And yet those opinions on their own are still incapable of altering reality. Just because someone has an opinion is no guarantee that the opinion is accurate. Curiously, the scientists involved still tend to support their arguments with actual evidence, rather than just making statements.

Enjoy.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
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This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
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Posts: 20539
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 100 of 128 (524989)
09-20-2009 9:38 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by valentin.d
09-20-2009 7:14 PM


Re: Why still apes
Welcome to the fray, valentin,

Moscow, Russia.

I was in your fair city in the 70's, with a tour group from Canada. I particularly enjoyed the daVinci Madonna and Child at the Hermitage Museum.

So english is not your first language, we'll try to accommodate you.

However the person always existed among primitive people and various monkeys.

So you don't have any problems with apes, monkeys and people living at the same time, ie the context of this thread.

I wish to offer you a material for incorporated research for the purpose of find dating.
The fossil of people is found together with dinosaurs

While it would be interesting to find examples of dinosaurs living at the same time as people, I am skeptical of this.

Here photos:
http:.../THECIVILIZATIONOFTHEEPOCHOFDINOSAURSISFOUNDINRUSSIA
Or: http://picasaweb.google.ru/valentindolzhenko

I did not see anything there that could be conclusive, certainly all the samples in the photos were out of their context, so it would be difficult to determine dates, etc. Do you have any articles on this published in journals?

Enjoy

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by valentin.d, posted 09-20-2009 7:14 PM valentin.d has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by valentin.d, posted 09-20-2009 11:01 PM RAZD has responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 20539
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 104 of 128 (525122)
09-21-2009 7:41 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by valentin.d
09-20-2009 11:01 PM


where to go?
Hi again valentin,

I have understood it that you do not wish to publish my answer:

Well the problem is that this is a debate forum not a publishing company. Anyone is free to post information, according to the ground rules.

I completely with you agree that: Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

Curiously this is not confined to religious beliefs. There are many beliefs that people have that are not based on a rational evaluation of existing evidence and a logical prediction of new information that will validate it. Take conspiracy theorists, or UFOlogists, for example.

However I trust the facts.
People lived together with dinosaurs!

Another group of people with similar beliefs are known as cryptozoologists:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptozoology

quote:
Cryptozoology (from Greek κρυπτός, kriptos, "hidden" + zoology; literally, "study of hidden animals") refers to the search for animals which are considered to be legendary or otherwise nonexistent by mainstream biology. This includes looking for living examples of animals which are extinct, such as dinosaurs; animals whose existence lacks physical support but which appear in myths, legends, or are reported, such as Bigfoot and el Chupacabra;[1] and wild animals dramatically outside of their normal geographic ranges, such as phantom cats or "ABC"s (An acronym commonly used by cryptozoologists that stands for Alien Big Cats).

According to authors Ben Roesch and John Percy Moore, "Cryptozoology ranges from pseudoscientific to useful and interesting, depending on how it is practiced." They further note that it is "not strictly a science", that "many scientists and skeptics classify cryptozoology as a pseudoscience" and that "papers on the topic are rarely published in scientific journals, no formal education on the subject is available, and no scientists are employed to study cryptozoology."[2]

Those involved in cryptozoological study are known as cryptozoologists. The animals they study are often referred to as cryptids, a term coined by John Wall in 1983.[3]


This does not mean that such animals\plants\etc may not be found still existing or to have existed in the near past -- the coelacanth is an example of a type of fish thought to be extinct, but where two (or three) new species have been found living. The Ivory Billed Woodpecker is another example.

Once again look at a fossil of people together with dinosaurs!
Here the text:
Here photos:

Sadly that information is not convincing to me. Making the case for co-habitation of people and dinosaurs is a very difficult task.

Consider a case where ancient people found dinosaur bones on the ground, and then buried their dead in the graveyard because of their beliefs about the bones. Later excavations, if not done very carefully, would not be able to tell that this is what occurred and it would be easy to conclude falsely that people and dinosaurs lived together.

Consider the case of norse and native american people that built houses using the bones of whales. Later excavations, if not done very carefully, would not be able to tell that this is what occurred and it would be easy to conclude falsely that people and whales lived together. If this was built where the ground was ancient seabed one may be tempted to conclude that the humans were aquatic and lived with the whales in the ocean.

In archeology and paleontology context is everything, for without context the fossils and artifacts are disengaged from the time-line of their history, and could easily be the result of fraud (aka Piltdown Man) or just later placement by a number of natural (floods, landslides) or human processes (collections, trophies, religious symbols).

This is why peer reviewed articles in appropriate journals is necessary to establish a baseline of validity for the evidence.

You might want to start with reading these journals to see what kind of articles and criteria they use for publishing.

I just did a google on "Journal of Anthropology and got these leads:

Journal of Anthropological Archaeology

Journal of Anthropological Research

The Journal of Anthropological Sciences

You could do similar for "Journal of Archeology"

Enjoy.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by valentin.d, posted 09-21-2009 10:29 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
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