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Author Topic:   A personal question
Andya Primanda
Inactive Member


Message 47 of 193 (20158)
10-18-2002 4:38 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by nos482
10-17-2002 8:55 PM


quote:
A non-religious person is more likely to be moral because they have everything to lose whereas a religious person has nothing to lose. This is our only life, as far as we know, and most of us aren't too likely to risk it. You, on the other hand, have the promise of an afterlife and all you have to do is profess your belief and obedience.
The atheists on EvC (you, and Compmage i think) introduced this phrase, which has been a good point to contemplate for me lately.
Let me tell you a local story. I was taught in elementary school (about late 1980s to early 1990s) taht atheists are bad, nonmoral people. My teacher said that their lack of faith made them behave as they wish, indulging in depravities. Why do they taught me this? It was a political agenda. Indonesians experienced a horrible point in history in the Communist Party coup of 1965, and the aftershock, which include the massacre of communists and the reign of Suharto's New Order, planted a trauma in Indonesians' minds, a hatred towards Communists. Since the commies were atheists, by then denigrating atheists has been a part of the political propaganda in education. I was taught that. Religion, good; atheism, bad.
However, now I have found that not all atheists were moral degenerates; sometimes I think that they faced a greater battle--to maintain a moral position without having a good prospect of what he/she will gain from his/her moral acts. If I give small change to a beggar, part of me did that because charity can earn me heaven. But if an atheist did the same, he/she does not do that in order to get to heaven or avoid hell.
next:
quote:
Tell that to the Taliban when they were in charge of Afghanistan, or in Iran.
Have you seen those fundamentistic Islamic countries where it is imposed?
As for my own position, I think they overdo the shariah. Recently there has been some political Islamic parties which gain favor in some local governments in Indonesia (in Aceh), and they practised Islamic law there. However, I cannot endorse that they would prefer to make rules that prohibit women to walk alone at night than to strengthen the economy or stop the war between separatists and the Army. Most Islamic fundies fall into symbolism while neglecting the more real problems.
ANyway, wasn't the Taliban made in USA? They were part of the Communist-battling troops sponsored by AMerica to fend off Soviet troops, as a puppet of the Cold War. No wonder they were put up again as another puppet, this time to make Islam seem anachronistic and cruel.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by nos482, posted 10-17-2002 8:55 PM nos482 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Mammuthus, posted 10-18-2002 5:13 AM Andya Primanda has replied
 Message 51 by nos482, posted 10-18-2002 8:41 AM Andya Primanda has replied

  
Andya Primanda
Inactive Member


Message 49 of 193 (20161)
10-18-2002 6:14 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by Mammuthus
10-18-2002 5:13 AM


Don't forget Osama bin Laden, former CIA agent. And Al-Qaeda? Who else but USA Some espionage experts here commented that either CIA made Al-Qaeda or CIA infiltrated agents into them which turn them into sick terrorists, and the US media cheerfully made them covergirl of the month.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Mammuthus, posted 10-18-2002 5:13 AM Mammuthus has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by nos482, posted 10-18-2002 8:47 AM Andya Primanda has not replied

  
Andya Primanda
Inactive Member


Message 53 of 193 (20172)
10-18-2002 11:02 AM
Reply to: Message 51 by nos482
10-18-2002 8:41 AM


quote:
That is the thing with fundies, they think that they are so right that they will do anything to make sure that everyone is the same as they are and normal moral "niceties" mean nothing to them. We see this in the recent bombing in Bali. Wasn't the group responsible called "Defenders of the Islamic Faith" or something like that? Some asked why they would want to bomb paradise, the answer is they want it to be only their paradise.
There is a group called 'Front Pembela Islam' (Islamic Defender Front) here, but their activities are restricted to wrecking bars and discos in Jakarta. Their leader once criticized Osama bin Laden, which he label as heretic. I know these guys; they cannot be responsible for the bomb. They can organize masses of people but they never use explosives. The alleged suspects are Al-Qaeda or US agents or the Gerakan Aceh Merdeka (Aceh Freedom Movement), a jaded separatist group which is on the verge of becoming like the IRA or ETA.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by nos482, posted 10-18-2002 8:41 AM nos482 has not replied

  
Andya Primanda
Inactive Member


Message 108 of 193 (20373)
10-21-2002 5:56 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by nator
10-19-2002 12:57 PM


quote:
That is what you have been taught, but it hasn't always been that way.
Have you read the Old Testament? A great deal of it is God promising to smite down the enemes of his chosen people. There isn't a lot about love and happiness in there.
Again; read the Old Testament and tell me how much more killing and enemy-felling there is than love.
Lets see... The OT was initially revealed to the Jews...
Now I get it. The OT is their reason for all those manslaughter and atrocities they commit to the Palestinians.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by nator, posted 10-19-2002 12:57 PM nator has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by John, posted 10-21-2002 10:37 AM Andya Primanda has not replied

  
Andya Primanda
Inactive Member


Message 109 of 193 (20374)
10-21-2002 5:57 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by nator
10-19-2002 12:57 PM


-deleted double post
[This message has been edited by Andya Primanda, 10-21-2002]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by nator, posted 10-19-2002 12:57 PM nator has not replied

  
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