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Author Topic:   How will creationists react to the first human-chimp hybrid?
cavediver
Member (Idle past 1722 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 1 of 138 (448777)
01-15-2008 8:25 AM


There are several possible future experiments that challange conventional Western religious beliefs regarding the 'miracle of life' and the 'special' status of humans in creation:

1) Successful human cloning
2) Successful creation of life from non-life
3) Successful breeding of human and chimpanzee/bononbo

Concentrating on 3), would this be sufficent to demonstrate our 'obvious' family ties with our cousins? Would this be rather convincing evidence for humans and chimps being of one 'kind'? I would answer yes, but how would our creationists react to this news? Or would they simply deny the possibility of the succes of such an experiment?

Misc topics in cre/evo?


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Message 2 of 138 (448785)
01-15-2008 8:58 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
    
nwr
Member
Posts: 5585
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005


Message 3 of 138 (448789)
01-15-2008 9:11 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by cavediver
01-15-2008 8:25 AM


My prediction for the day
Concentrating on 3), would this be sufficent to demonstrate our 'obvious' family ties with our cousins? Would this be rather convincing evidence for humans and chimps being of one 'kind'?

Evolutionists are already convinced.

Creationists will find the whole idea repugnant and immoral.


Let's end the political smears
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ThreeDogs
Member (Idle past 3930 days)
Posts: 77
From: noli me calcare
Joined: 01-08-2008


Message 4 of 138 (448803)
01-15-2008 10:03 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by nwr
01-15-2008 9:11 AM


Re: My prediction for the day
quote:
Creationists will find the whole idea repugnant and immoral.

It would depend very much on the kind of creationist entering the conversation.

Human-animal hybrid embryos conceived in the laboratory - so-called “chimeras” - should be regarded as human and their mothers should be allowed to give birth to them, the Roman Catholic Church said yesterday.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/06/26/nchimera126.xml

Here you have the ok and go-ahead for everything and anything the human mind can imagine.

Human-animal hybrid embryos conceived in the laboratory - so-called “chimeras” - should be regarded as human and their mothers should be allowed to give birth to them, the Roman Catholic Church said yesterday.


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ThreeDogs
Member (Idle past 3930 days)
Posts: 77
From: noli me calcare
Joined: 01-08-2008


Message 5 of 138 (448804)
01-15-2008 10:05 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by cavediver
01-15-2008 8:25 AM


quote:
2) Successful creation of life from non-life

What do you mean by non-life? What do you have that is without life? An empty jar of peanut butter?
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cavediver
Member (Idle past 1722 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 6 of 138 (448812)
01-15-2008 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by ThreeDogs
01-15-2008 10:05 AM


What do you mean by non-life?

Molecules - e.g. building a functioning bacteria-like cell from components that have not been salvaged from other living or once-living matter.

However, this is off-topic. I am interested in answers to the two questions relating to 3):

quote:
ould this be sufficent to demonstrate our 'obvious' family ties with our cousins? Would this be rather convincing evidence for humans and chimps being of one 'kind'?

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jar
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Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 7 of 138 (448815)
01-15-2008 10:38 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by cavediver
01-15-2008 10:30 AM


The more things change...
Looks like old news, seems we were chimps humpin' for quite awhile.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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teen4christ
Member (Idle past 3878 days)
Posts: 238
Joined: 01-15-2008


Message 8 of 138 (448854)
01-15-2008 2:14 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by cavediver
01-15-2008 8:25 AM


quote:
Concentrating on 3), would this be sufficent to demonstrate our 'obvious' family ties with our cousins?

No, it just demonstrates that somebody finally creates a hybrid between a human and ape. It will probably be something like a mule with an odd number of chromosomes.
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Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5377
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 9 of 138 (448855)
01-15-2008 2:32 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by teen4christ
01-15-2008 2:14 PM


It will probably be something like a mule with an odd number of chromosomes.

Mules do have 63 chromosomes and are usually sterile. A chimp-human hybrid should, indeed, have 47 chromosomes. There are similar hybrids that are fully fertile, unlike mules: the cross between a Przewalski's horse and a domestic horse has 65 chromosomes, for instance.

And that's not what Cavediver was asking....

Edited by Coragyps, : clarity


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johnfolton 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3670 days)
Posts: 2024
Joined: 12-04-2005


Message 10 of 138 (448856)
01-15-2008 2:33 PM


could this be sufficent to demonstrate our 'obvious' family ties with our cousins? Would this be rather convincing evidence for humans and chimps being of one 'kind'?

No, Mitochondrial Eve and Mitochondrial Adam supports the creationists belief in one man and one woman. I agree with you that we share a common creator but not that we share a common ancestor.

The lack of transistitional fossils in the fossil record to a creationists is scientific evidence that proves God is the common denominator. The creationists don't have problems with claudistic similarities for we share a common creator however the transistional evidence is still missing in spite of the evolutionists denying its not missing.

P.S. Evolutionists in their delusion has come up with words like claudistic similarities but this still does not explain the missing transistional fossils. Claudistic similarities to a creationists means we all have a common creator which of course why a chimp is still a chimp.

http://emporium.turnpike.net/C/cs/fossils.htm


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ringo
Member
Posts: 16241
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 11 of 138 (448858)
01-15-2008 2:46 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by teen4christ
01-15-2008 2:14 PM


teen4christ writes:

It will probably be something like a mule with an odd number of chromosomes.

I thought the standard creationist idea was that horses and donkeys can interbreed because they're the same "kind". Wouldn't a chimp/human hybrid imply that we too are the same "kind"?


“If you had half a brain, wouldn't you have realized after the second time, that it was you, not God?” -- riVeRraT (see context here)

“The endearing controvertist! One needs to become acute in the ploys of his kind.” -- ThreeDogs


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Rahvin
Member (Idle past 1266 days)
Posts: 3964
Joined: 07-01-2005


Message 12 of 138 (448861)
01-15-2008 2:47 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by johnfolton
01-15-2008 2:33 PM


No, Mitochondrial Eve and Mitochondrial Adam supports the creationists belief in one man and one woman. I agree with you that we share a common creator but not that we share a common ancestor.

There is no "Mitochondrial Adam." Mitochondrial DNA is inherited exclusively from the maternal side in sexually reproducing organisms, with a very few exceptions (and humans aren't one of them).


Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 14753
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 1.7


Message 13 of 138 (448866)
01-15-2008 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by cavediver
01-15-2008 8:25 AM


It's obvious. They'll make up excuses to deny the significance of it. If they can deny it happened they'll do that. If they can use any artificial elements in the process to insist that it means nothing they'll do that. Or maybe other excuses that I haven't thought of.

If they absolutely have no excuse that even they can accept (and for many that's a very low threshold indeed !) they'll come up with something. Maybe they'll insist that apes are degenerate humans. It doesn't make sense in light of the fossil record but few YECs would care about that.


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teen4christ
Member (Idle past 3878 days)
Posts: 238
Joined: 01-15-2008


Message 14 of 138 (448870)
01-15-2008 3:13 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Coragyps
01-15-2008 2:32 PM


quote:
And that's not what Cavediver was asking....

Of course that's not what he was asking. All you have to do is read the sentence right before the one you quoted and voila you have my answer for the question he was asking :)
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teen4christ
Member (Idle past 3878 days)
Posts: 238
Joined: 01-15-2008


Message 15 of 138 (448872)
01-15-2008 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by ringo
01-15-2008 2:46 PM


quote:
I thought the standard creationist idea was that horses and donkeys can interbreed because they're the same "kind". Wouldn't a chimp/human hybrid imply that we too are the same "kind"?

I don't know. Would it?
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