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Author Topic:   How will creationists react to the first human-chimp hybrid?
molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 719 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 91 of 138 (449978)
01-20-2008 2:18 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by Hyroglyphx
01-20-2008 12:32 AM


Re: What I would think in lieu of ________
The only thing that could make me seriously believe that chimps and humans are from the same descent are shared mistakes. Because similarities are specious for the sole reason that it does not prove relatedness. However, the same genetic mistakes would seriously bring in to question the relatedness of one organism from another.

Did you miss the part about "the same mistakes"?

Here. Let me show you.

cavediver writes:

DNA similarity, down to containing not only the same functions, but also the same mistakes, and ERV sequences.

ERVs are "mistakes" too. ERV = endogenous retrovirus, a virus that inserts in the host genome.

ERVs insert randomly into the host genome. An ERV locus shared by two species is evidence of descent from a common ancestor into whose germ line the original viral infection took place.

This is true of chimps and humans.

A pair of infertile creature that are NOT intimately related?

First miscegenation = misogyny, now interfertile = infertile.

Juggs. If you don't know the meaning of a word, look it up.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-20-2008 12:32 AM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 18309
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 92 of 138 (450012)
01-20-2008 8:44 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by johnfolton
01-19-2008 9:41 PM


johnfolton writes:

You could look at it all like chimps and humans like two galaxies inside a jar that are said not moving yet while the space between them is said to be increasing.

*You* might look at it this way, I very much doubt anyone else will.

You see this in like kind species genes mutate as generations increase. When like kind gene pools are separated they eventually start having problems interbreeding.

Kind has no definition within biology, so any statements whose interpretation is dependent upon the definition of kind are unintelligible.

What I'm saying there is more than just one fused chromosome and different genetic information between chimps and humans. As time increases so do the mutations to all the genes ensuring only like kind creatures multiply.

Of course there are more differences than "just one fused chromosome," no one has said otherwise. You inquired about the chimp/human chromosome count discrepancy, and I explained it for you.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by johnfolton, posted 01-19-2008 9:41 PM johnfolton has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by johnfolton, posted 01-20-2008 12:01 PM Percy has responded

    
johnfolton 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3668 days)
Posts: 2024
Joined: 12-04-2005


Message 93 of 138 (450034)
01-20-2008 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by Percy
01-20-2008 8:44 AM


johnfolton writes:
You could look at it all like chimps and humans like two galaxies inside a jar that are said not moving yet while the space between them is said to be increasing.

*You* might look at it this way, I very much doubt anyone else will.

No, I'm a bit of a creationists so think God is using string theory propelling them apart causing the space between them to increase. I just thought string theory interesting like light is a wave energy and here is Peter Gariaev looking at wave based genetics. Its almost like our cell functions might well be driven by super string theory and not just chemical reactions not that wave based genetics is yet based on string theory.

As far as the human genonome goes they don't really understand the genonome enough to be playing God. But that won't stop them like all those retro-viruses believed slipping out into the environment from transgenetic hybrid foodstuffs that are believed to be endangering the entire biosphere. If they don't really understand 98 percent of the genonome they should not be playing God.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

To ignore, or so poorly understand, the role of this 98% of the human genome is an appreciable error. Moreover, whether we correctly grasp the role of the genetic information represented by the known 2% of DNA is still in question--especially when the other 98% is presently terra incognita, unknown territory

The initially bright promises of the creations of transgenetic research have actually turned out only dangerous hybrid foodstuffs that are extremely hazardous to the biosphere on which our very lives depend.

How are we to transcend this condition of an abundance of flawed and dangerous experiments, where many inconsistent and hazardous results are caused by a lack of any proper understanding of DNA and a dramatic deficiency in grasping the foundational operating principles of the human genome?

Edited by johnfolton, : No reason given.

Edited by johnfolton, : No reason given.

Edited by johnfolton, : No reason given.

Edited by johnfolton, : Having a hard time getting my quoted links in.

Edited by johnfolton, : This is my last attempt to get the links to show up. For some reason was taking my sources?

Edited by johnfolton, : http://www.fractal.org/Life-Science-Technology/Peter-Gariaev.htm
http://www.teach12.com/ttcx/coursedesclong2.aspx?cid=1284&pc=Science%20and%20Mathematics


This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Percy, posted 01-20-2008 8:44 AM Percy has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by johnfolton, posted 01-20-2008 12:10 PM johnfolton has not yet responded
 Message 95 by Percy, posted 01-20-2008 1:44 PM johnfolton has responded

  
johnfolton 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3668 days)
Posts: 2024
Joined: 12-04-2005


Message 94 of 138 (450038)
01-20-2008 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by johnfolton
01-20-2008 12:01 PM


deleted was able to post links on previous post.

Edited by johnfolton, :

johnfolton writes:
You could look at it all like chimps and humans like two galaxies inside a jar that are said not moving yet while the space between them is said to be increasing.

*You* might look at it this way, I very much doubt anyone else will.

No, I'm a bit of a creationists so think God is using string theory propelling them apart causing the space between them to increase. I just thought string theory interesting like light is a wave energy and here is Peter Gariaev looking at wave based genetics. Its almost like our cell functions might well be driven by super string theory and not just chemical reactions not that wave based genetics is yet based on string theory.

As far as the human genonome goes they don't really understand the genonome enough to be playing God. But that won't stop them like all those retro-viruses believed slipping out into the environment from transgenetic hybrid foodstuffs that are believed to be endangering the entire biosphere. If they don't really understand 98 percent of the genonome they should not be playing God.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++=

To ignore, or so poorly understand, the role of this 98% of the human genome is an appreciable error. Moreover, whether we correctly grasp the role of the genetic information represented by the known 2% of DNA is still in question--especially when the other 98% is presently terra incognita, unknown territory

The initially bright promises of the creations of transgenetic research have actually turned out only dangerous hybrid foodstuffs that are extremely hazardous to the biosphere on which our very lives depend.

How are we to transcend this condition of an abundance of flawed and dangerous experiments, where many inconsistent and hazardous results are caused by a lack of any proper understanding of DNA and a dramatic deficiency in grasping the foundational operating principles of the human genome?

Edited by johnfolton, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by johnfolton, posted 01-20-2008 12:01 PM johnfolton has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 18309
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 95 of 138 (450061)
01-20-2008 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by johnfolton
01-20-2008 12:01 PM


Sorry, Johnfolton, I could find nothing I understood well enough to reply to, and much that lacked any connection to reality.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by johnfolton, posted 01-20-2008 12:01 PM johnfolton has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by johnfolton, posted 01-20-2008 10:40 PM Percy has not yet responded

    
cavediver
Member (Idle past 1720 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 96 of 138 (450098)
01-20-2008 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by Hyroglyphx
01-20-2008 12:32 AM


Re: What I would think in lieu of ________
The only thing that could make me seriously believe that chimps and humans are from the same descent are shared mistakes.

Yes, exactly. That's why I mentioned them. They are a bit of a serious giveaway. And there's quite a few of them.

A pair of infertile creature that are NOT intimately related?

Sorry, 'interfertile' is not a particularly helpful term given its visual similarity to 'infertile', but sadly it's the correct one. I've made the same mistake before.

So, just to repeat for thread clarity (given the many intervening OT posts...)

name a pair of interfertile creatures that are not intimately related (either through recent evolutionary common-ancestor, or through micro-evolutionary change within the relevant kind subsequent to the original progenitor pair leaving the ark)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-20-2008 12:32 AM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

  
johnfolton 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3668 days)
Posts: 2024
Joined: 12-04-2005


Message 97 of 138 (450135)
01-20-2008 10:40 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Percy
01-20-2008 1:44 PM


Sorry, Johnfolton, I could find nothing I understood well enough to reply to, and much that lacked any connection to reality.

I understand most of my post never posted I had copied the article but whenever I pushed submit results all you got was about half of what I wrote. It was like parental control I could not send the whole post thru. I tried like how many times not sure if my computer had a bug.

In short its like the creationists talk about the dividing of the marrow and the spirit and when people died in the old testament when they gave up the ghost they died. Its like this is a part of the inner workings Dr. Peter Gariaev is talking about how genetic engineers that the more they know the less they understand about the foundational inner workings of the genetic code.

P.S. I'm not a conspiracy nut but never had this happen probably just a computer glitch and its not worth the effort to retry to bring in theoretical stuff but thought the wave genetics part interesting and Peter Gariaev has a ph D and questions hybrids because of the ignorance of the genetic engineers.

---------------------------------------------------------------

Paradoxically, however, the more success we have in such genetic and molecular biology technologies, the further we seem to be from understanding the actual foundational principles--the inner workings--of genetic codes.

http://www.fractal.org/Life-Science-Technology/Peter-Gariaev.htm

Edited by johnfolton, : No reason given.

Edited by johnfolton, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Percy, posted 01-20-2008 1:44 PM Percy has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by Rahvin, posted 01-21-2008 10:00 AM johnfolton has not yet responded

  
Rahvin
Member (Idle past 1264 days)
Posts: 3964
Joined: 07-01-2005


Message 98 of 138 (450205)
01-21-2008 10:00 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by johnfolton
01-20-2008 10:40 PM


In short its like the creationists talk about the dividing of the marrow and the spirit and when people died in the old testament when they gave up the ghost they died. Its like this is a part of the inner workings Dr. Peter Gariaev is talking about how genetic engineers that the more they know the less they understand about the foundational inner workings of the genetic code.

It is the nature of all science and discovery that whenever a question is answered, even more questions will be able to be asked. Don't confuse this as an excuse for an argument from incredulity to have any hold - scientists don't claim to understand everything, or even individual subjects perfectly. All they claim is to have the most accurate model currently available, and a method of inquiry that ensures increasing accuracy over time in the modeling of the natural world.

I honestly have no idea what this has to do with "dividing marrow and the spirit" or "giving up the ghost."

P.S. I'm not a conspiracy nut but never had this happen probably just a computer glitch and its not worth the effort to retry to bring in theoretical stuff but thought the wave genetics part interesting and Peter Gariaev has a ph D and questions hybrids because of the ignorance of the genetic engineers.

And now an appeal to authority. A single person with a PhD and questions does not refute anything alone. And if you are even remotely suggesting that you had a "computer glitch" that prevented you from posting everything you typed because of the interference of "evilutionists," you are placed firmly in the "conspiracy nut" corner.

Add to this the fact that you're citing a man who complains about the "scientific establishment" and you fit even better in this category. The "scientific establishment" is very receptive to being disproven...as long as you bring the actual evidence, and not unsubstantiated claims.


Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by johnfolton, posted 01-20-2008 10:40 PM johnfolton has not yet responded

  
ashleycameron
Junior Member (Idle past 3854 days)
Posts: 1
Joined: 06-03-2008


Message 99 of 138 (469090)
06-03-2008 6:59 PM


Come on mate....
Whether it is possible..
But your post was really very imaginary...


Human Anatomy Online
    
BVZ
Member (Idle past 3567 days)
Posts: 36
Joined: 08-20-2008


Message 100 of 138 (484536)
09-29-2008 10:22 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by johnfolton
01-17-2008 6:03 PM


Re: The myth of mitochondrial Eve
I know it is off topic for me to mention this, but I serioualy cannot help myself. Here goes.

This is awesome:


If light is stretching then its still going the speed of light because nothing is nothing then general relativity does not violate special relativity even though light by triangulation has went more miles per second than special relativity in normal space. Right? So space affects light but its not a violation of general relativity because once light enters our solar system it slows down to the speed limit of our normal space. Does this make any sense like you say you would not beable to see the light if it was going away faster than the speedlimit of light, etc....So basically you have particles moving thru space bombarding uranium and all the other elements constantly that the stars themselves might well be made up of the same stuff that makes up the earth. Meaning there might of never been a big bang though its just one theory however these elements are just floating around through space bombarding each other could well be fusing the heavier elements right up to the point the earth was created 6000 to 13000 years ago in agreement with the creationists accelerated evidence in respect to mitochondrial eve.

Really, really awesome. Sorry for the interruption. I will go away now.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by johnfolton, posted 01-17-2008 6:03 PM johnfolton has not yet responded

    
cavediver
Member (Idle past 1720 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 101 of 138 (490087)
12-02-2008 7:40 AM


Given we have some new faces around, I thought I'd drag this out of obscurity and see if it has any more mileage.

As a reminder, here's the opener again:

quote:
There are several possible future experiments that challange conventional Western religious beliefs regarding the 'miracle of life' and the 'special' status of humans in creation:

1) Successful human cloning
2) Successful creation of life from non-life
3) Successful breeding of human and chimpanzee/bononbo

Concentrating on 3), would this be sufficent to demonstrate our 'obvious' family ties with our cousins? Would this be rather convincing evidence for humans and chimps being of one 'kind'? I would answer yes, but how would our creationists react to this news? Or would they simply deny the possibility of the succes of such an experiment?



Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by Nighttrain, posted 02-12-2009 9:39 PM cavediver has not yet responded

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 1720 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 102 of 138 (490210)
12-03-2008 4:34 AM


Bump for Peg
Following on from discussion at the Noah's Ark Volume thread.
  
Peg
Member (Idle past 3007 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 103 of 138 (490211)
12-03-2008 4:43 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by cavediver
01-15-2008 8:25 AM


"There are several possible future experiments"

i think you've jumped the gun LOL But you get 10 points for enthusiasm

Edited by Peg, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by cavediver, posted 01-15-2008 8:25 AM cavediver has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by cavediver, posted 12-03-2008 4:54 AM Peg has responded

    
cavediver
Member (Idle past 1720 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 104 of 138 (490214)
12-03-2008 4:54 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by Peg
12-03-2008 4:43 AM


i think you've jumped the gun LOL

And I think you missed the explicit future tense in the thread title.

Is this a bury-my-head-in-the-sand-and-hope-it-never-happens reply?

Or are you willing to stick your neck out and declare that it cannot possibly happen because chimps and humans are 'obviously' of different kinds?

If you are not so bold, then if it did happen, what would be your thoughts?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by Peg, posted 12-03-2008 4:43 AM Peg has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by Peg, posted 12-27-2008 5:12 PM cavediver has not yet responded
 Message 110 by Peg, posted 02-13-2009 6:24 AM cavediver has not yet responded

  
Peg
Member (Idle past 3007 days)
Posts: 2703
From: melbourne, australia
Joined: 11-22-2008


Message 105 of 138 (492060)
12-27-2008 5:12 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by cavediver
12-03-2008 4:54 AM


being completely honest here cavediver, im not sure exactly what i'd think about it

I believe anything could be possible with enough intervention and manipulation, but it doesnt necessarily mean that it would also happen naturally without the same intervention

so lets just say they manage to do it in a lab, I would still have a firm belief in God. Im 100% convinced of that. But what i might reconsider is the interpretation put on genesis...we've got things wrong in the past (7 literal days for example)

but i'd still rather cross that bridge when it comes rather then put my faith through the wringer on a speculation.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by cavediver, posted 12-03-2008 4:54 AM cavediver has not yet responded

    
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