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Author Topic:   ID/Creationism - Comparison of Human and Chimp Genomes
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 37 of 83 (359311)
10-27-2006 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by mick
10-26-2006 11:33 PM


Re: Where are the ID hypotheses?
This is a bit of a red herring. First, natural selection is not the "default explanation for absolutely everything in evolution". In reality, neutral models of evolution are often considered to be the null hypothesis and the existence of natural selection must be inferred by departures from the predictions of that null model.
Natural Selection is not the only hypothesis within the theory of evolution, but it certainly plays a huge part. Taking primacy would likely be mutations and trailing in second would be gene selection. Unfortunately, mutations tend to be so injurious to an organism that one may draw a logical conclusion that mutations directly affect the organism as it relates to natural selection in the negative-- i.e., the organisms greatly affected by mutation are eliminated. There is no demonstrable evidence to suggest that either natural selection or mutations have the capacity to lead to higher taxon.
Second, because the exclusion of God does not make the evidence "secondary" in any way; scientists also exclude fairies, unicorns and Satan from their causal models for the simple reason that their existence cannot be empirically falsified and therefore cannot offer much in terms of material causation.
There is nothing in science, that draws inferences from the material universe, that could directly prove the existence of God. Granted. But that doesn't mean that one could not logically draw upon some conclusions that things just happening for fortuitous reasons are few and far between. Eggastai is simply saying that Darwinism and its uncle, 'Strict Naturalism,' has put science in a chokehold and refuses to accept any alternative hypotheses.
1. human and chimp DNA is extremely similar
Don't you see the presumption in the whole thing? Humans and chimps just happen to share anatomical similarities. Instead of simply assuming that because they share a similar genetic sequence they must be somehow related, why not simply consider that if there were an Intelligent Designer, that at some point, some organisms are going to resemble one another more closely than others.
2. human DNA contains a large number of repeated units of great similarity to viral DNA
Right, but humans share 97% similarity with a field mouse and 52% similarity with a banana. Does that mean we evolved from fruit or could it mean that we know much about the structure of DNA but almost nothing about what that means from an evolutionary standpoint? I mean, all this is still loads of conjecture that rests its case on circumstantial evidence. We're still looking for the smoking gun with some actual evidence either found in stratum or walking amongst us today.
3. the number of nonsynonymous nucleotide differences beween chimp and human DNA is smaller than the number of synonymous differences
Yes, we hear much about the synonymous sequences but almost nothing about non-analogous sequences.
When I look at these facts without any inferential framework I have a great deal of difficulty working out what they signify. How many identical aligned nucleotides should we expect to find between human and chimp? Is 8% a high proportion or a low proportion of apparently viral DNA in the human genome? Why does it look like viral DNA?
Because perhaps DNA is DNA. That might be as asinine as asking why the atoms that comprise a turtle are so similar to the atoms that comprise a rock. Could one be related to other or do we just know what atoms are? I mean, DNA is a very complicated molecule that is still in its infancy as far as it relates to our total grasp of unraveling all its mysteries.

"There is not in all America a more dangerous trait than the deification of mere smartness unaccompanied by any sense of moral responsibility." -Theodore Roosevelt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by mick, posted 10-26-2006 11:33 PM mick has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Modulous, posted 10-27-2006 12:53 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

  
Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 39 of 83 (359340)
10-27-2006 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Modulous
10-27-2006 12:53 PM


Re: Comparisons
That's because evolution doesn't propose that new taxa will be arrived at, but instead only lower taxa... The evidence is overwhelming that the vast majority of species are in some way related to each other - how species can be related is the question the Theory of Evolution seeks to answer with its myriad of mechanisms such as natural selection and variation.
Well, of course lower taxa as subspecies are formed all the time within a host species, but then how is it that higher taxon exist? We know that horses and dogs have different breeds, which we should expect, but where is the smoking gun that shows any sort of macroevoultionary development? Darwin sought to answer this question in his day and hoped that an answer would eventually be uncovered. Here we are over 150 years after the fact and we are still asking the exact same questions. Don't you find that odd if the theory is presumed to be so solid?
But they could have massively different genomes and still be anatomically similar. There is no reason why their cytochrome c protein is coded for in an identical manner other than heredity. A cytochrome c protein can be coded for in an astronomical number of ways - most of which we don't see in nature...they seem to be clustered around a sequence of very similar coding patterns (the closer related the organisms are hypothesized to be from other methods, the more similar).
An interesting notion has that is often overlooked is that there is no tangible evidence that all things are related by a common ancestor since we don't have the progenitors sequence on file. And if you think about it logically, DNA comparisons are just a subset of the homology argument, which makes just as much sense as a common Designer argument. An engineer uses the same type of materials and conforms to the same laws of physics in most cases, so why should we expect something different in the engineering of a cell or a molecule?
As for cytochrome c, a common argument in defense of evolution, I have only made cursory glances at the argument and have not reviewed it in plenary. This article makes a persuasive argument from the viewpoint that I shared above.
Here's the kicker - the differences are in line with the predictions that can be made from ToE.
No, the real kicker is a case of garbage in, garbage out. No predictions were made, those were postdictions. They simply look at organisms that share the most similarity and tailor their argument according to that. That isn't a prediction at all.
97% do you have a source for that? I can't find anything off the top of my head except a BBC article which states a figure closer to 80%
This article posits that mice share 97.5% biochemical similarity with that of the common field mouse.

"There is not in all America a more dangerous trait than the deification of mere smartness unaccompanied by any sense of moral responsibility." -Theodore Roosevelt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Modulous, posted 10-27-2006 12:53 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Modulous, posted 10-28-2006 1:02 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied
 Message 45 by Lithodid-Man, posted 10-29-2006 12:33 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
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