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Author Topic:   Human Brain Evolution
txchvs
Junior Member (Idle past 3926 days)
Posts: 4
From: Ft Stewart Georgia
Joined: 03-22-2008


Message 1 of 23 (461150)
03-22-2008 9:03 PM


I am a regular on Christian Forums and I have debated the genetic differences between Humans and Chimpanzees endlessly. I am aquainted with many scientific publications on the subject and have a special interest in the development of the human brain from that of apes. My position is simply that the ape brain had neither the time for the means to develop into a modern human brain.

If this sounds like a topic of interest for these boards I will happily prepare a list of links and detailed specifics. I am willing and able to stick to exclusively scientific literature but also know the related theology and Scriptures.

Grace and peace,
Mark


Replies to this message:
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Admin
Director
Posts: 12579
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 2 of 23 (461247)
03-23-2008 8:40 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.
    
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2976 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 3 of 23 (461258)
03-23-2008 10:58 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by txchvs
03-22-2008 9:03 PM


The first part of this suggestion is so far off topic that no one should even think of replying. The second part about how genes evolve is possibly on topic depending upon the direction discussion takes. --Admin

It'd be interesting to know where evos think genes came from in the first place and how they evolve, if we are going to delve into your question.

Edited by Admin, : Add off-topic note at top.


This message is a reply to:
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txchvs
Junior Member (Idle past 3926 days)
Posts: 4
From: Ft Stewart Georgia
Joined: 03-22-2008


Message 4 of 23 (461262)
03-23-2008 11:15 PM


Genes and other things
Where they come from is largely a metaphysical question but how they evolve is straight forward enough. They evolve when the alleles, or alternative forms of the genes, increase in frequency, in populations over time. I don't know if that was a serious question but the answer was pretty easy.

Edited by txchvs, : Typos and such.


Replies to this message:
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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2976 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 5 of 23 (461267)
03-23-2008 11:53 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by txchvs
03-23-2008 11:15 PM


Re: Genes and other things
The origin of genes is a metaphysical question? Really?

How they evolve......I think the issue has to be more specific. For example, do they evolve on their own, or in conjunction with natural selection and the environment? Is there a preset pattern governing what they can evolve into? If not, are there limits to their evolution?

Should we expect anything predictive at all about gene evolution based on Darwinian theory?

Do the facts match those predictions?

Edited by randman, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by txchvs, posted 03-24-2008 12:04 AM randman has responded

  
txchvs
Junior Member (Idle past 3926 days)
Posts: 4
From: Ft Stewart Georgia
Joined: 03-22-2008


Message 6 of 23 (461269)
03-24-2008 12:04 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by randman
03-23-2008 11:53 PM


Re: Genes and other things
First of all the Darwinian answer would be gradually over time. That is not too far from the truth.

quote:
The origin of genes is a metaphysical question? Really?

Where they come from, why are they here, where are they going. Sounds like ontological questions to me.

quote:
How they evolve......I think the issue has to be more specific. For example, do they evolve on their own, or in conjunction with natural selection and the environment? Is there a preset pattern governing what they can evolve into? If not, are there limits to their evolution?

They evolve through various genetic mechanisms like recombination and gene expressions. Recently there has been a lot of research into the role of RNA. Natural Selection is the effect on the population not a real cause of evolution. Finally, the limits are the characteristics and effects of the genes themselves.

I would say that random variation gets most of the credit rather then random mutations if that's what you are getting at.

quote:
Should we expect anything predictive at all about gene evolution based on Darwinian theory?

Only that they are slight, successive and gradually accumulated over vast periods of time.

Do the facts match those predictions?

Edited by txchvs, : Missed the last line of the original post.


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Replies to this message:
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Taz
Member (Idle past 1368 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 7 of 23 (461272)
03-24-2008 12:31 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by txchvs
03-22-2008 9:03 PM


txchvs writes:

My position is simply that the ape brain had neither the time for the means to develop into a modern human brain.


And my position is that baseball is a very popular sport in America.
This message is a reply to:
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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2976 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 8 of 23 (461273)
03-24-2008 12:48 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by txchvs
03-24-2008 12:04 AM


Re: Genes and other things
The origin of genes is off-topic for this thread. Please keep discussion focused on human evolution. --Admin

First of all the Darwinian answer would be gradually over time. That is not too far from the truth.

Where's the evidence for that?

Where they come from,

So science cannot address how genes get here?

Only that they are slight, successive and gradually accumulated over vast periods of time.

Do the facts match those predictions?

No. At least, I haven't seen them. Maybe you can provide some evidence? Say, look at the theoritical common metazoan ancestor and the lineages that followed, or somewhere else?

Edited by randman, : No reason given.

Edited by Admin, : Add note at top.


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Larni
Member
Posts: 3975
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 9 of 23 (461283)
03-24-2008 5:23 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by txchvs
03-22-2008 9:03 PM


Hi txchvs, welcome to EvC.

You said you would be able to provide detailed specifics for your assertion: would you provide them?


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Wounded King
Member (Idle past 2172 days)
Posts: 4149
From: Edinburgh, Scotland
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 10 of 23 (461284)
03-24-2008 5:38 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by txchvs
03-24-2008 12:04 AM


Re: Genes and other things
Could you perhaps give us some details of the evidence which makes you doubt that the genetic changes between humans and chimps could have accrued over the time since they are thought to have diverged?

I'm very interested in both the role of non-coding genes and evolutionary changes in gene expression patterns so if you wish to focus on those I would be keen to discuss those areas.

TTFN,

WK


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by txchvs, posted 03-24-2008 12:04 AM txchvs has not yet responded

    
Admin
Director
Posts: 12579
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 11 of 23 (461307)
03-24-2008 9:54 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by randman
03-24-2008 12:48 AM


Re: Genes and other things
randman writes:

No. At least, I haven't seen them. Maybe you can provide some evidence? Say, look at the theoritical common metazoan ancestor and the lineages that followed, or somewhere else?

Evc Forum has science forums, religion forums, random-topic forums. You can discuss almost anything you like here, but we do request that you stay on topic in any given thread. If I continue to have to go around posting little "this is off-topic" notes at the top of your messages, then I'll suspend you.

Please, no replies.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

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Agobot
Member (Idle past 3607 days)
Posts: 786
Joined: 12-16-2007


Message 12 of 23 (461357)
03-24-2008 8:40 PM


quote:
My position is simply that the ape brain had neither the time for the means to develop into a modern human brain.

You are rather misinformed and ignorant of earth's history(like most of the religious people). Enjoy:

1. Plesiadapis - one of the oldest known primate-like mammal species which existed about 58-55 mya in North America and Europe

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plesiadapis

2. Aegyptopithecus - lived some 35-33 million years ago in the early part of the Oligocene epoch

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegyptopithecus

3. Proconsul - an early genus of primates that existed from 27 to 17 million years ago during the Miocene epoch

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proconsulidae

4. After Proconsul you can use the following phylogenetic tree:

http://anthropology.si.edu/humanorigins/ha/a_tree.html

A nice diagram how we came to be(up to about 14mln years ago)

http://www.ica-net.it/pascal/UOMO_JPG/purgatorius.htm

If you want to dig further back into history, this is who set the beginning for our ape/human family(to the best that we know as of now):

Eomaia - 125 million years ago

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eomaia

Although it's hard to draw a line as to when an ape-like creature has turned into a man, i'd say that would be around 450 000 BC when fire was first discovered.

So what gives you even the slightest idea that 58 million years is not enough time for an ape-like creature to evolve into a man? Or is it just a hunch? Please, save your efforts, and do not reference quotes from the bible, as they are pretty much worthless in any serious discussion.

Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.

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Replies to this message:
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Blue Jay
Member (Idle past 775 days)
Posts: 2843
From: You couldn't pronounce it with your mouthparts
Joined: 02-04-2008


Message 13 of 23 (461362)
03-24-2008 9:12 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Agobot
03-24-2008 8:40 PM


Agobot writes:

So what gives you even the slightest idea that 58 million years is not enough time for an ape-like creature to evolve into a man?

This wasn't his argument. He was arguing ape-to-man, not Plesiadapis-to-man. Behold:

txchvs writes:

My position is simply that the ape brain had neither the time for [sic] the means to develop into a modern human brain.

The word "ape" is reserved for Hominidae + gibbons. The word is not interchangeable with "monkey," nor with "primate."

However, I think apes evolved in the Miocene, giving them a maximum of about 20 million years to evolve into modern humans. So, I agree with you that they had enough time.


There was a point to this [post], but it has temporarily escaped the chronicler's mind. -modified from Life, the Universe and Everything, Douglas Adams
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Wounded King
Member (Idle past 2172 days)
Posts: 4149
From: Edinburgh, Scotland
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 14 of 23 (461391)
03-25-2008 8:00 AM


Previous thread on this topic
Just as some background there was a previous thread on this same topic, Genetics and Human Brain Evolution.

TTFN,

WK


Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by sfs, posted 03-28-2008 11:08 AM Wounded King has responded

    
Taz
Member (Idle past 1368 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 15 of 23 (461414)
03-25-2008 11:45 AM


As I suspected. This is a case of hit and run, hence my totally off the wall response.

Man, I'm getting good at this prophecy thing.


Replies to this message:
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