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Author | Topic: Why are there no human apes alive today? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ZenMonkey Member (Idle past 4532 days) Posts: 428 From: Portland, OR USA Joined: |
So you don't understand the analogy. Go back and re-read it.
Your beliefs do not effect reality and evidently reality does not effect your beliefs. -Theodoric Reality has a well-known liberal bias.-Steven Colbert I never meant to say that the Conservatives are generally stupid. I meant to say that stupid people are generally Conservative. I believe that is so obviously and universally admitted a principle that I hardly think any gentleman will deny it.- John Stuart Mill
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ZenMonkey Member (Idle past 4532 days) Posts: 428 From: Portland, OR USA Joined: |
Mazzy,
Could you please give us some examples of barims and explain what the standards are for determining whether something belongs in a barim or not? What would have been helpful is if you'd ever gone to the The Creationist Challenge - Can You Identify Kinds? thread I started and help us understand how kinds are determined. (I assume that there is no significant difference in meaning between "kind" and "barim." If there is, please clarify.) I'll reproduce the quiz here. Take your time. Can you tell me which of the following are different kinds and which are the same? What standard are you using to make these determinations? 1. A dog and a wolf.
2. A macaw and a cockatoo.
3. Vibrio cholerae and E. coli
4. A termite and a cockroach
5. A tiger and a cheetah
ABE: Just to be clear, I don't want to drag the conversation off topic into discussing any of these species per se. I just think that if Mazzy wants to assert that humans and non-human apes belong in different barims/kinds, that we should see what standards exist for making such a determination. Edited by ZenMonkey, : No reason given.Your beliefs do not effect reality and evidently reality does not effect your beliefs. -Theodoric Reality has a well-known liberal bias.-Steven Colbert I never meant to say that the Conservatives are generally stupid. I meant to say that stupid people are generally Conservative. I believe that is so obviously and universally admitted a principle that I hardly think any gentleman will deny it.- John Stuart Mill
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ZenMonkey Member (Idle past 4532 days) Posts: 428 From: Portland, OR USA Joined:
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Mazzy writes: Do you know what off topic refer to? We could spend the next month discussing this alone. So unless you think these organisms are Homo erectus or something close to them, you are what is called straining a useless point and playing "make one mistake and you're gone", as well as going off topic....Sorry I am not a child anymore. I don't beleive that this is an off-topic request at all. I clearly stated that I wasn't trying to drag us off into a discussion of the particulars of any of the species used as examples here. All I'm asking is for you to show us how to use barimology to determine if two species belong in the same barim or not. You're claiming that humans do not belong in the same taxon as the other Hominidae. You're making the claim. I'm leaving to more knowledgable people than myself the burden of explaining why the currently accepted classification system makes humans a member of a larger group instead of a distinct group unto themselves. All I want is for you to support your clam by giving the rational basis for separating human beings from the others. If you can't show us how barimology works to determine groupings among other organisms, how can we know whether or not your placement of humans in one group and the other Hominidae in another is valid? Talking about differences in skull configurations and the relative lengths of limbs is all fine and good. All we want to know is how how similar two things have to be to be in the same kind/barim, or how different they have to be to belong in different kinds/barims. Edited by ZenMonkey, : No reason given. Edited by ZenMonkey, : No reason given.Your beliefs do not effect reality and evidently reality does not effect your beliefs. -Theodoric Reality has a well-known liberal bias.-Steven Colbert I never meant to say that the Conservatives are generally stupid. I meant to say that stupid people are generally Conservative. I believe that is so obviously and universally admitted a principle that I hardly think any gentleman will deny it.- John Stuart Mill
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ZenMonkey Member (Idle past 4532 days) Posts: 428 From: Portland, OR USA Joined:
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Admin writes: The evolution side should explain why humans, chimps, gorillas and orangutans are placed within a single group, and the creation side should explain not just why they shouldn't be grouped together, but how they should be regrouped and why. Since no-one else has done it yet, here's my attempt at laying out the way that human beings are classified in the modern Linnaean system: Kingdom = Animalia quote: Does this apply to human beings? I believe the answer is yes. Phylum = Chordata quote: Do human beings have spinal cords? Check. Class =Mammals quote: Breath air? I believe so. Backbones? Yes. Hair? Yep, head hair, body hair - got that too. Sweat glands, specialized teeth (not all the same like a crocodile's), ear bones, breasts, placentas? Looks like we qualify as mammals. Order = Primates Well, now we're getting a little more specific. Let's look at the list of features that the primates have in common:
Well, that's a pretty long list. But if you take the time to think about it as you read it, you will have to admit two things: 1. Sounds like all those features apply to us.2. They also apply to baboons, lemurs, orangutans, and gorillas. You might be able to find some primates that are missing a feature or two from this list, but all in all, if you can find a critter that matches up to what we have here, you'll have to call it a primate. Family = Hominids At last, our final stop on the classification trail. Here's what it takes to be considered a hominid:
Look at that list carefully, please. It describes us. It describes chimps. It describes gorillas. It describes orangutans. They're apes. We're apes. Forget genetics. Forget common ancestry. All we're talking about is physical features and behaviors. That's the scientific rational for putting H. sapiens in the same group as those other guys. If you have a rational for a different classification, please let us know what it is. Human beings are hominids. Period.Your beliefs do not effect reality and evidently reality does not effect your beliefs. -Theodoric Reality has a well-known liberal bias.-Steven Colbert I never meant to say that the Conservatives are generally stupid. I meant to say that stupid people are generally Conservative. I believe that is so obviously and universally admitted a principle that I hardly think any gentleman will deny it.- John Stuart Mill
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